Jackie Ferguson – Creating an Opening in the DEI Conversation for Late Adopters

Connect with Jackie:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• The Inclusive Language Handbook: A Guide to Better Communication and Transformational Leadership
• The Diversity Movement
• Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox podcast
• Address Pay Equity
• Compensation Consulting Services
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 2

• “Gen Z . . . they’re doing so much research on companies that they are supporting from a customer perspective and the companies that they’re considering working for.”
• “One of the reasons we have a skew [in pay equity] is that some people are given opportunities based on what organizations think their ability to do the work is. People that look like me are given jobs based on a proven track record.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my co-host, Dwight Brown. Hey, Dwight, how are you?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:53

Hey, David, I'm good. How you doing?

 

David Turetsky: 0:54

I'm very good, thank you. Today we have a very interesting, fun and, hopefully what you'll find also, is very informative guest. We have Jackie Ferguson. Jackie Ferguson is a certified diversity executive and the co-founder and vice president of content and programming at The Diversity Movement. Jackie, that was a mouthful. How are you?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 1:15

I'm great. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

 

David Turetsky: 1:18

We're excited too. Jackie, why don't you just give us a little bit about your background and how you got to form The Diversity Movement and how you got to this moment?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 1:28

Yeah. So you know, I always say that I grew up in diversity, right? So I come from a multiracial, multi generational, multi regional family. And so I had the benefit of having so many different thoughts and perspectives and opinions are just around my dinner table. And so I learned early how to listen to perspectives that were different than mine, and then also how to respond and how to engage in conversations with someone that had a different viewpoint, my background has been varied. So I've done so much time in executive support and marketing and HR that all had that DEI thread throughout. And at a marketing agency, the CEO, who I've worked with for quite a long time and also I'm married to, fun fact! Said, we should write a, you know, diversity course, we're doing courses on marketing and professional development and said, we should write a diversity course because inclusive marketing is so important. And so, you know, one of the things that I like to do for the good or not so good, is well I'll do it! Right, so volunteered for that, got into it, thought I knew a lot, there were so much more that I needed to learn, and started writing this course. The course did well with our clients. And then the next question was what's next? And so we started The Diversity Movement from there, and, you know, we are able to serve hundreds of clients, all around the country, and globally, and so excited to, you know, just make a dent in in the world and how people are, you know, embracing each other in the workplace in their communities and, and treating each other with with respect and value.

 

David Turetsky: 3:23

And I think one of the ways in which they can do that and learn more about you, as well as your thoughts on it, is to read your book. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your book?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 3:32

Yes. So the Inclusive Language Handbook, a guide to better communication and transformational leadership is a book that we wrote, based on some information that we had started gathering in that first course. And it's really to understand how words matter, you know, they can hurt, or they can heal, right? When I was growing up that old adage of, you know, sticks and stones, right, but really, words can hurt. And so you can use words to empower and create a welcoming environment, or to exclude. And understanding the difference is important, because there are so many words and phrases that we've used growing up, and that we use in our, you know, the places that we're from, that are not inclusive. And so understanding, you know, what we often say, and what we should say, instead is important to just creating those environments of of inclusion in our, you know, our workplaces.

 

David Turetsky: 4:31

And by the way, some of the ones that are in your book, and by the way, I read it cover to cover. It's a very fast read, a very informative and very educational read. Some of the words that are in here, Jackie, oh my goodness, I've used them hundreds of times without even realizing it, like rule of thumb or which, by the way, I'm aghast about. Or grandfathered, which, you know, we used to use it all the time when talking about incentive plans.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 4:57

Absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 4:57

You know, these the by the way, it's not an exhaustive list. But some of the ones that are there, I mean, there's a lot in here, by the way, a lot of tables, but they're ones that will hurt people in unintentional ways. And until we educate ourselves about them, we're just totally ignorant to it. And, you know, if you could just talk to that for a second about how the education is one of those, and the awareness is one of those things that enables people to grow and to start to overcome that.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 5:28

Absolutely. And, you know, the thing that we need to realize is exactly what you said, it's unintentional, we don't know that we're hurting or offending, or bringing up trauma for a person in some of the words that we use, we're just using the words we've always used. We don't stop, however, and think about where does that word or phrase come from? What's the history of that word? And we need to do that more. So understanding inclusive language gives us the opportunity to slow down a little bit and do that. But you know, it's, there are words that that we use, like, you know, guys, right, instead of everyone, right, and that's certainly something that, you know, coming from the northeast, that's how we greet each other. That's how we refer to each other. But it's not inclusive, right, and non inclusive of women, non inclusive of non-binary people. And we want to be inclusive. I don't want to as a business leader, I don't want to as a friend or a neighbor, want to exclude people unintentionally. So understanding how our language can affect people in the positive right. And the opposite is true. If you're saying hello, everyone, you know, using that same example, that makes people feel included, want to engage. And so you can, you can really change an atmosphere with your language. When we think about DEI, it's, it's often so big, right? But if we just narrow it down to what I can do, what you can do, is change some of our words and phrases, to create those environments of inclusion, it can make a difference.

 

David Turetsky: 7:09

And just one more point on that, because we're still in the stage where we're getting to know you, even introducing yourself as part of in a, in a presentation. And we go, ladies and gentlemen.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 7:22

Yes!

 

David Turetsky: 7:23

Something as simple as that! Instead of to your point just now. Welcome, everyone! And being able to make that one choice. You know, it shows your awareness, and it shows that I'm gonna wrap my arms around everybody in the group, not just the ladies and gentlemen in the group, so

 

Jackie Ferguson: 7:38

Absolutely right. And, you know, another thing, just, you know, to build on that is, it's not just the people in the group, but it's their families, it's their friends, it's their neighbors. And you know, you're you want to be inclusive of the people that are there in earshot. And also, the people around them that they love and care about.

 

David Turetsky: 8:00

Well, I'm definitely gonna make the different choice next time I present. And it comes from that awareness now. So thank you. So now, one thing Jackie that we do for all of our guests, is we ask, what's the one thing that no one knows about you? I even have merch from our merch store that says, What's the one thing no one knows about you?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 8:21

I love that question. I thought about that for a moment to like, what is the one because I'm, I'm pretty open. Right? And I'm sure you have a lot of guests that say that. But my little fun fact is I still have two primary teeth. So I'm 49. But I have two baby teeth that I'm really that I'm terrified of losing, right? There's no There's no big girl teeth underneath those teeth flee. And every time I go to a new dentist throughout my life, it's like they do the X rays, and then three dentists come in to look at my X rays. Because it's hilarious because I just build that in as part of my X rays now and it's hilarious. But you know, the good thing is in

 

David Turetsky: 9:12

You are very young looking, though, that's why.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 9:14

Oh thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. If they do come out, though, you know, the tooth fairy is gonna owe me quite a bit of money with interest.

 

Dwight Brown: 9:24

Going back to your point? Yeah, well, talking about the IRS

 

David Turetsky: 9:28

Interest on these teeth. That's grown dramatically. And so probably accrued for this though, Jackie, at the tooth fairy.

 

Dwight Brown: 9:37

Don't worry. Don't worry. The IRS will tax you for it though. Trust me.

 

David Turetsky: 9:43

Now, especially that they know about it.

 

Dwight Brown: 9:45

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 9:47

That's, that's definitely a unique one Jackie, you've got us there.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 9:50

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 9:53

So let's touch on the topic that we're going to talk about today and we're going to be taking DEI from a different perspective. We're going to be talking about bridging the gap of education, understanding and inclusion. So the topic is going to be how do we create a conversion baseline to ensure that late adopters to DEI have a way into the conversation?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 10:12

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the real question, right? Because DEI is hard work. And part of the reason that it's tough is because not everyone is on board at the same level with the same understanding, the same experiences. And so your message has to be broad enough for everyone. But also, you've got to have these mini messages that message people throughout. The people that are excited, right, and say, Okay, it's about time and the people that say, Yeah, I don't know about this DEI stuff, right. And, you know, you've got to have those, those conversations throughout to bring people along, in a way that that they feel comfortable and safe, while still making significant progress in the direction of inclusion, and it's tough.

 

David Turetsky: 11:14

So the first question is, well, how does The Diversity Movement? What's the special sauce in what The Diversity Movement does, then?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 11:21

Yeah, so, you know, so many DEI consultants will start with, you know, unconscious bias training or different things like that. What we do at The Diversity Movement, I think that is a differentiator, is you know, every company is different, every, you know, every culture is different. And so there isn't a one size fits all. So we like to come in, really get to understand and know, what the challenges are of the organization, what the culture is, and then create a customized approach. And we do that through a suite of employee experience applications that personalize it for that organization. And we have elearning courses, certifications, consulting, analytics, assessments, content and lots of different tools that support your organization on their DEI journey, it's important to, you know, have a robust solution. Because what people are seeing are, you know, the studies that show that DEI benefits your business from a revenue generating standpoint, from a profitability standpoint through, you know, innovation, and productivity, and retention, right. So there are lots of benefits to your business. But you've got to get this this engine moving. And we do it through a variety of ways. So I think that's one of the differentiators with The Diversity Movement.

 

David Turetsky: 12:49

Is there a commonality that you find that companies are... obviously the challenges that most companies have is around awareness. So is there is there a set of commonalities around those not necessarily challenges, but the solutions that that the companies need?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 13:07

Yeah, I would say yes and no. So every company is a little bit different, right? And industries are different. So when you think about technology, they are definitely more, I would say, open to DEI, but also they have challenges in their recruiting, right? Because very often, tech people look similar, right. And so they want to they're having challenges in recruiting. So I think that there are some some commonalities, and it's, you know, around the communication, like, how do we create a plan? How do we roll this out? How do we communicate with our employees? How do we get them educated? Those are similar, right. But how that's done depends on certainly the industry and the company.

 

David Turetsky: 13:56

I think one of the things that people tend to forget, as well as that the age differences and the generational differences, cause gaps in our ability to understand, as well as the communication of these things to them. Let's face it, my father was very different learner, and very different had messages carried different weight to him. Yeah, whether, you know, it was from the TV or from newspaper, yes, very old comment, newspaper, and even online. And so, I guess the question is, how do we also take the tangential, sorry, the longitudinal look at age as well as race, ethnicity and gender?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 14:38

Yes. And that's so important, because there are so many generations right in the workplace now. And one of the things that was a lightbulb for me in understanding how those generations are different is the way we learn. So as a Gen X er, you know, we sat in neat little rows and raised our hand to, you know, be excused to the bathroom and answer questions right. And it was, it was very regimented. With Gen Z, you know, they are in collaborative stations and do creative work more than we did. And, and it's very communal, right in the way that they learn. And so our expectation is, as Gen X ers was to work one way, right, we come in, we work nine to five, Monday through Friday, and heads down. And if we do our work well enough, we get promoted on these specific schedules. And you know, Gen Z is very different from that we are the, you know, we are more or have been more driven by, you know, the approach of what work looks like. They on the other hand, Gen Z, is very much interested in their vision and values aligning with the organizations that they work for, and buy from. And so that has to align, they want more of a balance of a, you know, of a full and complete integration with their lives, which was different than us. And so, understanding that being able to inspire both sides of that is important, but it's a it's a challenge when you're used to doing work one way.

 

Announcer: 16:22

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David Turetsky: 16:33

Let's go on to question two and talk about some of those issues. And some of the challenges. So many organizations are adopting DEI practices and they will have challenges that they're dealing with in being able to get adoption for practitioners as well as leaders. What have you seen?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 16:51

Yeah. And this is where it gets hard. Right? So there are three main challenges from from my perspective, one is gaining buy in, right, it's the right thing to do. But how do we get leaders to dedicate time and resources to making this important. And, you know, I referenced before study after study shows the business benefit of DEI, being able to, you know, share those statistics is important in gaining buy in, because, you know, business leaders are thinking about, they're responsible for the bottom line, right? And so how do you tie DEI to the bottom line? The second thing is creating actionable plans. So we have these very lofty goals, but sometimes are challenged with understanding how to get there, it's, you know, hard if you don't have the right framework and support established, you know, and then we ask ourselves quite ourselves questions like, What do you work on first? How do you measure results? How do you educate and, you know, work with people who are thinking differently about DEI? There's a lot to consider and a lot that a DEI leader has to be able to think about, and lead progress, right, even when it's hard. So creating those actionable plans, we talk about the what and the why things are, what we need to change. But how is something that is important in getting those steps in communication. And then the last thing I would say, is messaging, the naysayers and the late adopters, and this is sometimes a tough one, because our background, our family, upbringing and experiences, influence how we think about everything, including people. So understanding how to listen and find common ground and move people in an inclusive direction authentically, can be hard and frustrating and repetitive. But inclusion means all of us and all of us have an important part to play in ensuring that we are kind humans.

 

Dwight Brown: 18:56

I'm curious, as you're working with companies, and you're working especially on the leadership end of things, what do you encounter in terms of the number of companies who are there with a true desire to see change versus the the companies or maybe I should say the leaders that are there to check the box?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 19:19

Well, you know, in 2020, when we had that focus on on justice, right, a lot of companies were getting into that mindset and and really and serious about it, you know, wanting to make a change for their organizations in their spaces, and then realize that the work is hard and long and takes time. And it's not a flip of the switch, right? There's a lot of understanding and a lot of messaging and a lot of patience that's required to make real change and you know, right a ship that you know, might be off from a cultural standpoint. But you know, the most important thing is that you stay committed to the work. For those companies, it's easy to see after about a year, what their real commitment is. And you know, in that that initial phase, we saw a lot of companies making their their DEI statements and adding more diversity to their website and things. But, you know, one of the things that you have to realize, especially for, you know, again, Gen Z, and how they're coming into the workplace, they're doing so much research on companies that they are supporting from a consumer perspective, and the companies that they're considering working for, they're digging into, you know, is this a statement, right, that they're making? Or are they really digging in to how they're supporting this community or these communities from, you know, a, the perspective of community service and giving and who their vendors are? And who are they hiring? And, you know, do they have inclusive and accessible practices? So, you know, there's that that kind of icing layer, right, but when you get down into the cake, are they really looking to make meaningful change within their organizations? And that's different. Yeah.

 

Dwight Brown: 21:22

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 21:23

So you're saying they're voting with their feet, as well as their pocketbooks to basically say, hey, listen, I'm going to do research on the companies I want to work for, but also the companies I want to spend my money on. And if you're not living, what you're saying, or you're not saying the things I want you to say, then I'm going to spend money elsewhere. But I'm also not going to be a candidate for you.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 21:47

That's right. Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that I you know, back when I was interviewing for jobs, when I was moving into the workforce, you know, you get an interview, you'd go, you'd hope for the job, and you get it and take it and heads down and do your work until you get to a promotion. These folks today, and really, it's it's a more of all of us, we want to work for companies that believe in the things that we believe in, that are working towards those ends. And you know, in the things that they do, apart from the work itself. And, you know, if we're not seeing that it's it's not as attractive. I know a lot of candidates and have talked to a lot of job candidates that have made a decision based on a values alignment, rather than a financial alignment. You know, the finances are certainly important. But that's not the most important, according to some surveys that have been done over the past 18 months about what matters to job candidates.

 

David Turetsky: 22:49

I'm thinking when you mentioned candidates, and in one of the things you were one of the responses you were saying, well actually the last one, when you're saying about the financial piece of this. We're really big, what's the word, proponents of pay transparency and pay equity. And what we've seen lately, and thank you to the to the honorable representatives from Massachusetts who introduced a new bill on pay transparency in Massachusetts, what we're seeing is that, you know, from legislation perspective, companies are being forced to put what the rates are, the starting rates especially, are for jobs. So people understand exactly, they all have the same information when they're going to get an interview, and there isn't the dealmaking that has happened for decades, forever. So we all know what the same basis is. So how do you see the pay part of that? Or do you ever focus on the pay part of that of the equality piece when you're dealing with these DEI and especially when we're dealing with those naysayers and some of the challenges?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 23:53

Absolutely, you know, pay equity is important. And one of the things that happened and why we got askew right is there are a few things. One is some people and usually not people that look like me, are given opportunities based on what organizations think their ability to do the work is. We are, you know, people that look like me, are given jobs based on a proven track record. So I've got to already have that experience where some people have the benefit of what their potential is. So if you're given a job based on your potential, and now you know, you've been making more money, right, you're generally empowered to negotiate, they're open a little bit more to the negotiation, again, based on the potential of that of that candidate. They get more money. So now there's an inequity there. So now, if you're asking the question to that candidate versus me as a candidate, well, how much did you make at your last job, that candidate is going to be significantly higher than than I am. And so then I'm going to get paid on the next job based on what I made at the previous job. And so that inequity, between a white man in the US and a black woman in the US is about a million dollars over the course of your life and career, which is, you know, one of the reasons we have that that wealth gap.

 

David Turetsky: 25:30

Right. And thank goodness, most states are preventing that question of, what did you make before, so that we're not continuing that inequity in the next offer. And that's why that's why we love and support pay transparency, because it does set that level playing field for at least the offer. Not talking about potential. Because, you know, obviously, you're right. And that's a lot of inherent bias in that conversation, or in that thought process. But hopefully, they're starting out on the same foot.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 26:07

And it's, it feels like, oh, this person's getting so much of a raise, but that's what they would have gotten if they weren't subject to the bias. That is just as you said, it's, it's part of, you know, the, the workplace, it's part of our communities. And we've got to right that. And if it, if it looks like an aggressive steep climb, then, you know, good. Because, you know, it's there's that inequity there that we've got to we've got to fix.

 

David Turetsky: 26:42

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover, on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind, go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So let's talk about that steep climb in a different way. Because DEI is, is and can be overwhelming, you know, the breadth of it, the the full scale practice of what a DEI practice should be, could seem very overwhelming. So what are the ways in which we can practically take as examples for creating that those sets of environments of inclusion, that, you know, whether it's on our workplace or even on our communities, that will make things better? What are some simple examples?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 27:43

Yeah, so you know, I always say start with yourself, right? You're right. When we think about DEI, it's big and overwhelming. And there's so many things to do, and so many steps and a multi year practice. But if you use something like inclusive language, right and inclusive language to dig into that, and we talked about that a little bit, as is the practice of intentional word choice that seeks to find ways to name and honor and value experiences and identities and there are six roles that frame inclusive language. We talked about gendered language, right saying everyone instead of ladies and gentlemen, one of the the things that is often sad is, you know, using mental health language to describe everyday, everyday scenarios, or using traumatic experiences to describe every day scenarios, for example, you know, very often when we skip breakfast, we say that we're starving, right? I'm starving, because I skipped breakfast, and I'm late to lunch, and you're not starving. You just skipped breakfast. Right? But for someone who has been, or is right, food insecure, and we know that that's a real issue in the United States and throughout the world. You don't want to draw out that, that trauma by you know, saying something that is bigger than it is or, you know, things like, you know, I had PTSD from the traffic this morning, right? No, that's not PTSD and so

 

David Turetsky: 29:26

Or we're crazy at work right now.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 29:27

That's right. Absolutely. There are so many words and phrases that we've just always said that we don't think about where those those phrases come from, that we need to take a step back and just really consider it and start asking more about the the words that we use. What does that really mean? And we do that because we don't want to exclude anyone that identifies outside of the groupings that we're speaking to. And communication, you know, is so important to business. As we communicate, to sell, to build partnerships, to teach to, you know, earn support, to hire, but most importantly, we use communication to build and fortify our relationships. And so if we're using words that make people feel othered outside of those, those conversations, you know, we can lose them.

 

Dwight Brown: 30:22

How, in your mind, do we take that understanding how overwhelming it is? I mean, you take the examples that we just talked about the fact that, you know, I think like any of us, we wouldn't even think about the fact that there could be an exclusionary piece that that goes with those. And when you think about it, how overwhelming and how paralytic it can be in just trying to consider those things. How how do you keep it from getting to that point? Or can you?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 30:58

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a big thing, right? And I think that the most important thing is to level the playing field by saying, Okay, what do we all agree on? We want people to feel safe. We want people to feel valued. We want people to be respected. And if we agree on that, as a foundation, then, you know, we tend not to politicize things, and we tend not to make an us versus them, we're about where can I grow? What can I learn? And DEI is really a journey. It's a journey for an organization, it's a journey for an individual, because our experiences are so different, what we've been exposed to has, you know, is different. And so we have to just be willing to take those steps as individuals, take those steps as organizations. Be okay, if we mess up and, and apologize and keep going forward, keep learning.

 

Dwight Brown: 32:06

Keep the conversation going with it. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

David Turetsky: 32:11

We live in a world of politicization of everything, and it doesn't mean you're being woke. And I hate using that word, to be a mensch, which is just being a good person.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 32:23

Yes!

 

David Turetsky: 32:24

And it doesn't take a lot. And it's and to me when I was reading your book, it's about awareness. It's just about awareness. Once you're aware that the language we use is so freaking hurtful that because, you know, we just if you don't know, and you're totally ignorant of it, asking the question, oh, my gosh, did I did I say something that offended you? At least the journey starts there, because the journey of ignorance is sitting on your butt not doing anything, right?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 32:54

That's right. Absolutely. And for all of us, none of us are excluded from that, right? We all have words that have been in our vocabulary, or, you know, in our social circles, since we were young, and you know, understanding right, most people don't offend people on purpose. And so understanding that

 

David Turetsky: 33:16

Well there are those...

 

Jackie Ferguson: 33:20

There are those. But most people don't realize that they're offended someone with their words. And so understanding what those words are that can make people feel excluded is helpful. And, you know, because ultimately, people are listening, our children are listening, our friends are listening. And so we want to make sure that we're creating those environments whereever we are.

 

David Turetsky: 33:46

They are echoes of us.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 33:47

Yes, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 33:50

Wouldn't it be nice to have echoes of good things? Not what what could be destructive, or could be problematic things?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 33:58

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, that the thing that gives me hope, though, is this generation Gen Z. That's, that's they're asking more questions. And they're, they're open to more ways of thinking and ways of being. And I think it's beautiful. And they're teaching us, you know, older folks so much about, you know, how to embrace people, and ultimately, that's what matters.

 

David Turetsky: 34:28

It does. So there is hope for the future. And one of the ways you know, you talk about it a lot in your book, and one of the ways we can do this is fostering conversations with people at work and in our communities, to learn more about them and to ask the questions. Hey, I didn't offend you when I said that, did I? And then start the conversation of how do we get to a better place where we understand each other? We understand how those words can harm. You were talking about sticks and stones before but how can they harm you? And what can I do to be better? It least to have those awareness. Again, because when I read your book, I read some of those words in those tables. And there are a lot of tables. And you use really good examples of not just where those words came from, I guess the word is etymology. But also how are they actually used? And who it would impact? Ask questions. If you're not going to read Jackie's book, which you definitely should! Ask questions of the people in your communities about, hey, listen, I haven't offended you lately, by the words I use? And, you know, be open to criticism.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 35:30

Absolutely. And you know, most people are so open and willing to walk you through language that makes them feel valued. And so it's okay to ask the question, you know, should I use disabled? Should I use person with a disability? You know, how, you know, how do you if you're part of the LGBTQ plus community, how do you refer to yourself, I want to make sure I'm using the language that reflects what you use for yourself. And that's all good. I mean, it's a it's a process, it's a learning, it's an open dialogue. And if you have that, you'll be fine.

 

David Turetsky: 36:05

But but just one caution, just because it's okay for one person, doesn't mean that the language you're talking about is okay for others. So constant learning, right?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 36:16

Absolutely. Right. And you know, language is nuanced and it it changes over time. And you have to be open to constant learning, constant understanding. And that's exactly right. Every one is different in every category, right? You can't look at one race and think that is all the same. You can't look at disability and think everyone refers to themselves in the same way. And same with every identity group. So you've got to ask those questions.

 

David Turetsky: 36:46

So Jackie, in summary, there are things we can do to be different, and to learn from people around us. And if we're going to start DEI programs, one of the first things we have to do is talk to our leadership team get buy in, talk to them about the economic effects of a DEI program, as well as to personally figure out what our journey is together by having lifelong education, about learning about how language affects people around us, in not only our DEI programs, but also just in our normal everyday lives. So is there anything we didn't cover that you wanted to touch on?

 

Jackie Ferguson: 37:33

You know, I think another thing, just to keep in mind is the importance in our society right now of mental health, and how DEI right how inclusion, how equity, how respect filters in to mental and emotional wellness, and just being aware of that, and encouraging the people in our spaces to take the time they need to practice self care to, you know, use EAPs and resources around us. Because life is, is hard. And it's certainly hard when we've got, you know, these pockets of tension and negativity, right. And so, you know, I would just say, prioritizing our mental health and encouraging our friends and colleagues and family members to do that, as well is important.

 

David Turetsky: 38:26

It's excellent. It's an excellent way to end the podcast, because we all know people who have mental health issues and, and there are many more that we don't know, because we don't, they don't tell us, they just hide everything. And they put on a mask, so we don't see it.

 

Dwight Brown: 38:43

And feeling isolated, which comes from that not having good inclusive language is one of the biggest factors that goes with that.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 38:53

Absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 38:54

So Jackie, thank you so much for being here. We've loved having you as a guest, thank you so much for sending your book. It was a wonderful read, as I said before, quick read, really brilliant, very educational, a little emotional, because you will learn something about yourself and about what you've done, and how you might have offended people along the way inadvertently or, you know, by using language that you know, now you're never going to use again. So thank you so much for that. And Dwight, thank you.

 

Dwight Brown: 39:23

Thank you! Jackie, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

 

Jackie Ferguson: 39:26

Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

 

David Turetsky: 39:28

And we did too. And thank you all for listening. Take care. Please read Jackie's book and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 39:34

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