Jennifer Brown – Inclusive Leadership

Connect with Jennifer:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Jennifer Brown Consulting
• Compensation Consulting Services
• HR Data Labs Season 6 Episode 2
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 25

• “If I had a magic wand, we’d have a way of measuring according to those on the receiving end of inclusive behaviors. . . and I think that would yield so much more information.”
• “I worry about backsliding and forgetting some of the most poignant and powerful lessons and truths that we’ve heard from people who are really in pain the last couple of years. We have to carry that forward and continue to heard that, as hard as it is.

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology.Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly.And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent,that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my friend and co-host, Dwight Brown. Hey,Dwight, how are you?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:53

Hey, David. I'm good How you doing?

 

David Turetsky: 0:55

As you can tell,I've had a lot of caffeine today. So today, we have a very special guest, Jennifer Brown,who's the CEO and founder of Jennifer Brown Consulting.Jennifer, how are you?

 

Jennifer Brown: 1:05

Hey, I'm good.Thank you for having me, David and Dwight!

 

Dwight Brown: 1:08

Good to have you here.

 

David Turetsky: 1:09

We are very pleased as punch. So Jennifer,why don't you tell us a little bit about Jennifer Brown, and about Jennifer Brown Consulting.

 

Jennifer Brown: 1:17

Okay, thank you so much. Let's see. So I am a California native. I went to East for college, back east, as we used to say, went to an incredible small liberal arts college called Middlebury, if anybody knows it. And you know,in my 20s, I was a little bit of a lost kid. I think 80s kids often were. Wondering, wondering how am I going to make a living?What am I going to do? So I had two kind of loves at that point in my life, I really wanted to be of service and make a difference. So I went and found the nearest nonprofit I could find and got a job there and loved it. It was in a youth community service. But the other love I have is music, and particularly as a singer having grown up in a musical family. So I had this amazing opportunity.I was singing at nights and weekends. But I said, You know what, I just got to go and scratch this itch, I have to move to New York, I have to study voice and I went and enrolled in an operatic Vocal Performance master's degree and got my degree, and then subsequently thought I was going to do that for a career, but I injured my voice. And I had surgery several times, which means that you're just not going to have the stamina to do eight shows a week in Broadway terms.So so I

 

David Turetsky: 2:31

You had to pivot.

 

Jennifer Brown: 2:32

And I had to pivot. And I landed on my feet,though performers are amazing and agile people. And I found another stage which I actually didn't know existed, which was in the whole field of leadership training and development. I became a trainer and a facilitator and really enjoyed what we say being on platform in my world, right, which is just deliver, deliver deliver. In the early days, I taught everything in the whole kind of quote unquote, soft skills catalog, I taught things I had no business teaching, but I was thrown in to the mix. And I loved it. I just learned so much and loved learning with my audiences loved kind of knowing enough to be dangerous, right and helping facilitate progress, but not being an expert. And then, but I'm also so I was always active too in the workplace equality movement, because I'm a member of the LGBTQ plus community. So sort of in parallel to all this,I was always meeting and you know, doing pro bono like panels, and I was on committees and we were wondering, like, how can we get corporate America to be a place that embraces our community, both from a hiring perspective, retention perspective, but also customers,given the buying power at the time and still is just exploding for, I'll say, just minority communities if I can use that word, the trillion dollars of buying power now I think that belong to the LGBTQ plus community. So we, in those early days, I had a seat at that table, learned so much about how employers really like what's in it for them, like what do they value? What how would what would they listen to what would they believe? How do you present an argument for greater equality and domestic partner benefits predated marriage equality,right? We worked on other issues. So I like to you know,now I get to kind of give I think, voice to those of us who have been closeted in the workplace. Those of us who hasn't felt haven't felt comfortable in the workplace,haven't felt seen, haven't seen any role models are truly underrepresented, and even stigmatized and, and it's been just such an amazing journey now to swap one stage for another and feel like I'm kind of coming full circle to something that was always important to me,which is the voice which is the ability to express the all of that good stuff that makes us feel as humans like we can be proud of the life we live, proud of the work we do feel that we're making a contribution that matters, and that we're not afraid of our identity being a challenge or an impediment to doing that.

 

David Turetsky: 5:00

and your career?

 

Jennifer Brown: 5:01

Yes, and your carrer, absolutely.

 

David Turetsky: 5:03

And you're an accomplished author as well. And I've read your book, and it's really good.

 

Jennifer Brown: 5:08

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 5:08

I will tell everybody because I'm a very honest person, I still have like, 20 pages left, and I'm gonna get through them.

 

Jennifer Brown: 5:14

You better!

 

David Turetsky: 5:16

Listen, I promised my podcast listeners,so I've got to do it. But up to this moment, it's a really good read, it's a fast read, it really is. If you can, if you can put aside all the other distractions of your world, it's actually very entertaining as you're going through it as well,because lots of quotes, and lots of really good, very interesting things that you bring up, and we're gonna get into that as we talk today. But we're gonna have a link to it in the show notes as well. So I imagine it's on Amazon for purchase?

 

Jennifer Brown: 5:42

Yes. And I read the audio book myself, in case you like that.

 

Dwight Brown: 5:45

Oh, nice!

 

David Turetsky: 5:46

Good job.Alright, so the links will be there then. So Jennifer, as we always do, it's tradition on the HR Data Labs podcast. What is one thing that no one knows about Jennifer Brown? Because by the way, the vocal thing that

 

Jennifer Brown: 6:03

I just I just, I just blew that surprise. I know.I know. Yeah. I guess we could say I was a certified scuba diver when I was like, 12 years old.

 

Dwight Brown: 6:12

Wow. You're an overachiever!

 

Jennifer Brown: 6:17

I had overachieving parents. Yes.

 

Dwight Brown: 6:20

Exactly. They just push you off the boat.

 

Jennifer Brown: 6:23

Literally!

 

Dwight Brown: 6:24

Sink or swim, sink or swim.

 

David Turetsky: 6:27

You can't do it!

 

Jennifer Brown: 6:31

Yes, leap, and the net will appear, hopefully.

 

David Turetsky: 6:35

But you lived to tell the tale. So it was okay.

 

Jennifer Brown: 6:37

I did! It's actually character building. It is.

 

David Turetsky: 6:39

Yes, it was.Well, and we can tell you have a lot of character. And we're gonna get into that now, because we're going to talk about you.And we're going to talk about your topic, and the topic is inclusive leadership.So our first question is, what have we gotten right and what have we gotten wrong about inclusivity in DEI initiatives?

 

Jennifer Brown: 7:09

Hmm, what have we gotten right? Well, I think adding it to the D, which is diversity was important and significant. And it wasn't always thus. When I started in this work, 25 years ago, it was just the D, and we were looking for representation. We were looking for that. And then we realized that inclusivity I liken it to the soil, and D is like the seeds that you're planting in the soil.

 

David Turetsky: 7:32

Sure.

 

Jennifer Brown: 7:32

And inclusivity is the circumstances right? The environment, is it conducive,right to welcoming and getting the most out of all kinds of diversity. So I love that it was added. Interestingly, some have flipped it and say, I&D now,depending on what company and have added other letters, which we can get into if you'd like,but but it has become so important that it's it's taken first place, which I think is is is a wonderful way to look at it. Because I think you have to build the culture before and as you bring in new kinds of talent so that you don't skip a beat in terms of people's reaching their potential, right, to contribution.

 

David Turetsky: 8:10

Right, or else you risk losing, not just them,but you risk losing a lot more than that, because of the examples that they then highlight to everybody in the world, especially on social media these days.

 

Jennifer Brown: 8:23

I love I kind of love that accountability, I mean it's it's harsh. It's harsh. But there is a very, it's very transparent these days and companies can't hide anymore and that culture, that inclusivity within the culture is actually being valued in a an unprecedented way by younger talent, they are evaluating that they are absolutely either vouching or not for what it's like to work in a certain place.And that goes a long way.Because it's such a sort of towering value for that generation in a way that I think it wasn't for us. I mean, we didn't even we were sort of this lost generation, I think that had felt like we had no, we were not enfranchised to use our voice to influence the workplace for more equality, we sort of put our blinders on and said,you know, yes, sir. Usually,sir. Right. And it wasn't really about us feeling that all of us mattered, feeling that we were resourced and supported in the workplace. It was a it was a pretty harsh place. And I love that I think the workplace needs to do better in terms of addressing the whole human you know, I think we ask so much of people, and people are going through so much. So we're at this time where difference wants to be seen and heard. I mean, I like to tell my leaders I speak to when you think I don't see color, and you remember being taught that. It's one of those one of those adages that I think we've got to really reevaluate and kind of put on the shelf.Now Now we're in an age where the full person I think,deserves to be seen, supported.Nobody should be diminishing parts of themselves, not only because it's not fair, but because too, none of us can contribute fully from when we are feeling compromised when we're feeling like, Oh, I'm closeted, you know, I, I never showed up in the most powerful way I could when I was when I was managing all of that.

 

David Turetsky: 10:14

Well, if you remember correctly back in the80s, we did hide ourselves, we did hide our true selves, no matter what, whether it's Jewish, whether it's, you know,you had a background that wasn't exactly considered, you know, to be completely white. And, you know, we never, we never actually came out, even veterans were worried about, about outing themselves and of course, mental health, forget about it. But now, and you mentioned in your book as well. And I'm going to say that a lot, by the way,things like BRGs or ERGs provide opportunities that we would have never taken before. I'm going to self identify as that. But now,thank God, they exist! So people can feel like, hey, other people are going through the same crap,I am.

 

Jennifer Brown: 10:55

So true. I'm so grateful for that. Affinity Groups is what you're talking about. And that's like the black ERG, the Hispanic ERG, LGBTQ.But you know, some companies still don't have those groups.And what we saw over the last couple of years as more like companies flooded into the DEI work, of course, because of the murder of George Floyd. And what happened subsequently, even the smaller companies now have affinity groups, and I'm so heartened to see it's not just the province of like the sort of the big employers that had the resources to stand these up and be now it's viewed as like,we've got to have these because we've got to hear from communities that haven't really had a voice and have been afraid to use that voice and tell the truth. So I think the best cultures are going to be ones that put these in place that build it so they will come and believe me, people will come if you build it, because people are looking for a voice. I mean,this is sort of this fundamental need that we have.

 

Dwight Brown: 11:47

It is going to become ubiquitous for all companies, which it should!Definitely.

 

Jennifer Brown: 11:52

Yes, indeed,agreed.

 

David Turetsky: 11:54

Within Salary.com, where Dwight and I work we actually have times when we all get together, and we talk and we share our own personal stuff. And it's not it's it's almost like because we're a smaller company. It's not a it's not really an affinity group as much as it is everybody getting to be able to share their stuff.And I wish it was more like an affinity group. And I wish we had more. But I think all it would take is saying we'd love to get one together to actually start one. And, you know,actually, so I guess the question is does it start with us, or does it have to be somebody special who's building that kind of stuff?

 

Jennifer Brown: 12:30

Oh, I love that question, or does it have to be created from the top, which is the other. Like that that's usually I think one of the best answers. I mean, I always assume there's a groundswell. You know,there's always a want and a desire for people to have this,but I do think the build it and they will come there's truth in it, which is, particularly if the senior level endorses it, I think the powerful thing about coming that way, is that we as an institution are saying this is important enough that we want to charter these, they are serious identity matters, there are things we need to learn,there are people we need to know about. So we can pull them up that pipeline and get them into the C suite. There are customers that we need to understand from these different groups. So there's nothing like feeling like a business priority, right,and feeling that there is not just sanctioned, but supported and valued. And so ideally,you've got top down getting it,putting it in place, supporting it assigning executives to be executive sponsors, for each of the groups. But then you've got like lots of enthusiasm from employees in general to say, I would definitely join one, I will step up for leadership roles. Remember, there's still so many stigmatized identities that I think that first person raising their hand, depending on what identity we're talking about, is it is a scary proposition for a lot of folks.I'm still encountering, there's a company just the other day that said, we're launching our networks, we're so excited.We're going to have the Hispanic group, we're have the Women's Network, and we're going to have a Disabilities Network. And I was like, so where's your black Network, an Asian network? And they said, well, our black employees are just not ready to really like, you know, hold their hand up. And I said, oh,so in that case, I said, this is where from the top matters when you've got people who are scared. Same with LGBTQ same with a lot of these veterans should also be a group by the way, veterans ERGs are amazing and so important. So I just think that the blessing if you're going to do it for one,you should you should do it for all and you might even want to look at religion, spirituality and faith, you know, interfaith groups are really interesting.Not not very common, but I think increasingly important,particularly for multinational companies, but anyway, I mean,it's just really integral to every strategy.

 

Dwight Brown: 14:47

So that gets to I was going to ask you, you know,I think the double edged sword sometimes with with it coming down from leadership is that sometimes it can get watered down as it you know, or be sort of a check the box exercise, you know, we're gonna need to have this group. But I'm, you know,I'm curious about your experience. It sounds like this was a case for the example you just gave where it wasn't necessarily watered down. It was just sort of partial for where,where it should have been. But what's your experience with that?

 

Jennifer Brown: 15:18

Yeah, I mean, I think they were trying to be rightly so sensitive to not wanting to put the cart before the horse before employees were ready. I actually really like that. I think that's taking a cue right from employees is always good.

 

Dwight Brown: 15:31

Right.

 

Jennifer Brown: 15:32

And really showing that you're listening.So but yeah, I think to go beyond the check the box well,well the groups need to be I think chartered for a certain purpose. And that needs to be clear and very strategic, we often call it like aligned to the business aligned to the business care abouts, and priorities. So those are pretty simple. They're not a mystery,right? It is recruiting and retaining talent from this community, this demographic,understanding common biases,that get in the way of that,training people who are not in that community about that community's experience, which is super important, right? What how do we mitigate our own biases for a visa vie that identity,and then the customer focus, so that should also be part of their mandate, which is to inform product development,sales and marketing images that we use, you know, language that we use as an institution. So if you charter them, you really must charter them, not just just as social clubs, not just as philanthropy, which is, in the old days, I think, where they most sort of quickly found a home. But to really say these drive innovation in the company,they do they need, if they have a seat at the table, they can kind of, by the way, like save the company from missteps, right when when it enters a market. I mean, there's been so many unforced errors. I feel like when I see an ad campaign gone wrong, for example, and I say to myself, where was the where's the affinity group? I mean, do they exist? Were they at the table? Were they listened to? Or are they really heard, which is different, right? Where they really heard and and did they feel safe enough, by the way to be critical of something before it got it went out into the world and garnered negative publicity. So there's like sort of a whole process of involvement and participation that I think ideally you set up so that it does go beyond check the box it is, the whole purpose of this is to get to know people to understand how the institution can be better to serve more effectively, to retain people, and to diversify the leadership ranks of a company, which by the way, most companies are still nowhere near as diverse as the world that is being served. And the top is less way less diverse, on race and ethnicity, and gender, just to pick a couple of descriptors,than the workforce in general.So we still have this like mismatch top to bottom or bottom to top. Now we've got to remedy that for that reason, but also for the market.

 

Announcer: 18:04

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 18:11

So we talked a little bit about what was right.So is there anything glaring about what is being done that's wrong about inclusivity in DEI?

 

Jennifer Brown: 18:25

Yeah, it's not like wrong purposely. I just think it is hard to measure. I think that's always the problem.Wrong is a strong word, I am more just think, look, if if you're measuring something that's sort of how does a leader behave in team meetings, for example, or over like in the course of communications? How do you? How do you measure that leader on their inclusive behaviors, and according to whom? Sometimes we only ask for the person to rate themselves.And we all know, it's very difficult to get an accurate rating, some of us over inflate our skills, and some of us, you know, underestimate that. So I think that if I could wave my magic wand, we'd have a way of measuring according to those on the on the receiving end of inclusive behaviors, like a leader saying, How am I doing on this? And here's the scale of,you know, competencies on a one to five. And I think that would yield so much more information.But I think companies are barely defining it, let alone doing more of a 360, let alone tying performance ratings and compensation to those ratings,right. That's where we're going.But we're not at all there yet.And we've got to kind of nail it down and really begin to measure it because what gets measured gets done.

 

David Turetsky: 19:45

So on that note,how would you describe optimal inclusion for leaders?

 

Jennifer Brown: 19:50

You know, the biggest thing I can say which is a bit counterintuitive, is it's not about having all the answers about what this looks like,because I just think we are all learners. We're all works in progress. I know I am. Even though I do this for a living,things are always emerging to my consciousness and emerging in my awareness, let alone moving from awareness to skill and competency with that information and knowing what to do with that as a leader, and then and then there's sort of a further stage,which is really mastery, you know, which is confident,competent, you know, very outspoken, loud insistent on change. So I think we're like at varying degrees as learners. So I think how we, what we're looking for is that that spirit of inquiry, humility,vulnerability, transparency, and authenticity in terms of sharing, like, here's who I am,what I understand about my own identity. And by the way,sometimes what we understand about our identity is our privileges, you know, and even not even that word, we utter it,and we're afraid of getting like of the backlash. Yeah, so I try to talk about mine a lot. Like if these listeners could see me,I'm a white blonde woman, my pronouns are she her, and I'm very feminine presenting in my gender expression. So I walk through the world. And I yes, do I sense danger? Certainly,sometimes. But I also walk through the world relatively more safe than a lot of other folks who don't look like me,identify as I do. So. Yeah, I think if we could measure and compensate leaders on the ability to say, here's what I know. And here's what I don't know, here's what I'm learning.Here's what I care about. If we could help people kind of get comfortable being, it's very uncomfortable to not have competency in something and leaders are, they're like allergic to it, and they don't want to admit it.

 

David Turetsky: 21:47

Especially as a leader though, Jennifer, I mean,especially as a leader, you don't want to show vulnerability. I mean, you had an example where you talked about Tim Cook coming out at Apple and saying, you know, I'm a CEO of one of the largest companies in the world. And it's hard to represent when you're not being authentic. But it's also hard not to come out, and then be judged for this as being the head of one of the biggest brands and companies in the world. And people. I know people struggle with this all the time,because I deal with it with my children, and the pronouns and the and their gender identity and other things. So I can't imagine it's not everybody weighing on something, because you also described it as a Rubik's Cube, because I'm one thing, but I'm also a ton of other things, too. And even if we're totally comfortable with saying, you know, I'm a Jewish American, or Yes, I'm a white male or whatever, there's a ton of other things behind us whether it's my mental capacity,or I may have mental issues, or someone in my family does. And I'm very cognizant of it. If you don't know the whole me, and there's no way you can, how can we pretend to understand each other, or even pretend to walk in each other's shoes, if we don't know that Rubik's Cube?

 

Jennifer Brown: 23:05

I know. And, you know, showing the face we choose to show and sanitizing our identity and making others comfortable. I know we all have experience doing that when we don't trust and when we don't know our environment and how it's going to hurt us or help us. And we often usually assume we're going to be hurt by it. I mean, that's, I remember coming out.

 

David Turetsky: 23:25

Cause we are!

 

Jennifer Brown: 23:26

Yeah, yes. Yes,that's true. That is true. In some, in some cases, sadly, yes.And yet others I know, for coming out over and over again,that we I have always anticipated a more negative reaction and been surprised when I give people more credit. Or say I'm in a room of all men,and I'm, you know, there again,because I've been there many times, and I'm under estimating who people are and what they have the capacity for, and what they understand maybe directly or indirectly about what I all of who I am. So it's this, I think, to find allies, that are potential allies that are probably all around us, is not everybody, but we need to declare ourselves and we also need to share what goes on for us and tell truthfully, here's what I hear that, you know, you don't hear. And here's what that means, and sort of stir the empathy and the compassion in others, which I think leads to allyship and solidarity. But I think if we are too scared of each other, and one side is scared of saying the wrong thing, and the other side is scared of disclosing. I mean,that tends to be like that.That's where we are and this is a really unhelpful binary.

 

Dwight Brown: 24:36

There's always an abyss in between.

 

Jennifer Brown: 24:38

There is there's a scary moat with lots of alligators.

 

Dwight Brown: 24:42

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 24:43

But people have stepped into it and gotten their legs chopped.

 

Jennifer Brown: 24:47

That's right, no that's true too.

 

Dwight Brown: 24:49

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 24:50

So there is a reason to be scared. But there's also a reason to be hopeful or because if there wasn't this stigma put on by one political party of the word woke, which,you know, whatever. I don't understand why we can't be compassionate, or at least be understanding, forget about compassionate, okay? Forget about it. Okay, you don't need to care about me, but at least be understanding about the fact that, you know, I'm a 9/11survivor. And I don't want any pity for it. Just don't keep bringing up the World Trade Center when we talk or, you know, don't talk about planes going into buildings, or, you know, like, that happens literally every day. So, you know, you don't need to care about me, just be a mensch, be a nice person, just be human. And I don't understand why people can't be like that in 2023.

 

Jennifer Brown: 25:41

I know. Boy,you're just you're just giving me a reminder of something I need to add when I teach.Because you're right, that, you know, what it really takes,though, is you you just even saying that gave me a gift. I mean, you were just probably like sharing, right? That this is what you hear. But when I hear that I say to myself, where am I not tuning in to what somebody's experience may be when they don't tell me they have that experience? I think that the work like for me, the reason I share my pronouns all the time is I have no idea how the people around me identify,and I don't want to presume that everyone is as comfortable, you know, as I am with the pronouns you think I should have? Which are she her, right? That makes sense, right? Because that's the way I present. So anyway, I the work is really hearing as many stories like the one you just shared as as possible, I once said that leaders are paralyzed with fear around their own development. And I have a friend who has limb paralysis, and she's a disabilities activist.And she was on my she was in that conversation. And she said,Jennifer, like really beautifully called me in which I want to say is the most gracious way of giving feedback. And it can be done skillfully and politely and, and absolutely hit the mark. But she said, we, you know, I would, I would suggest a different word. Because, you know, I'm in this community, and this is what I this is my life.But here's something I would suggest instead. And I literally, we didn't even miss a beat. I said, Thank you so much for that, I will never forget that I have never forgotten that. It's changed everything I said since then around this, and what a gift. And now I can go and educate others and use that as an example when I teach. So I do think we have these this one,if somebody is courageous enough to say, hey, here's how that hits me. Every time you say that, or every time use that word or whatever to tell that story. I think I understand your intent. It's not exactly landing. And here's something I think might resonate more. We all remember those, those take courage. Those are hard conversations. And it says much how we take that in as it is about the courage that it takes to articulate it. And I think if we could have more of that, and not that have that be scary, not have that escalate not have that be, you know, I that's what I wish for. But I know it's so some days, it feels like it's just so like tense that we're locked up.

 

David Turetsky: 28:00

Absolutely. I can't imagine that person who's saying, you know, I have paralysis, could you use frozen instead? Or could you use you know, fearful or something? It can't imagine that, to your point, the courage it takes for them to say it in a way that doesn't offend you. In a way in which they go, Hmm, okay, let's do this without emotion.

 

Dwight Brown: 28:25

It's really hard to do that.

 

Jennifer Brown: 28:26

Hard to do that,because you've had to do it so many times, right? And you're so fed up, you know, you're just like, oh, again, like, I have to come out again, because somebody assumed that I had a husband,like, you know, we could do that. But at the same time,could we, I don't know, I think we have to be gentle with each other. Because you know, in those moments, you get angry.Remember that you you've been on the opposite side, too. And there are things, there are ways in which you have you know,maybe somebody was afraid to give you feedback, you know, and therefore you're sort of running around the world, like articulating and repeating things that you shouldn't. But no one has, I think, in a way,like loved you enough. I mean,really, it comes down to caring for each other, wanting each other to be better and more informed. So I always appreciate that and I think that we none of us, none of us should be on our high horse about always getting it all right, because that is completely impossible. So you know, I we got to just temper,temper ourselves and be patient and show the patience that we hope others show with us. I mean, I think that's where I kind of net out.

 

David Turetsky: 29:30

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well,you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today.So Jennifer, what can HR practitioners do to help support leaders in the organization with inclusivity?

 

Jennifer Brown: 30:03

So much, so much. My HR partners are good friends and audiences I speak to a lot. You know, HRBPs business partners get that that like direct access to their leaders.And it's such an a privileged spot to be in to influence that leader. And I would imagine a lot of you listening to this have leaders coming to you really struggling with the question of, of inclusion on a whole variety, struggling in all kinds of ways. Maybe they're resisting, maybe they're clueless, maybe they're self conscious, and afraid of making a mistake. So they're, they're struggling with perfectionism,maybe they have some beliefs that are causing them to have trouble with really embracing the importance of it, and how to practice it. And maybe, maybe some are just like, you know,I'm a good person, like, don't I do enough? You know, what more do I really need to do? Can somebody else do this for me?Can I just check the box? Right?So I think, I think helping leaders, and in the book, How to be an Inclusive Leader that you referenced earlier, and many times, thank you. There is a model, there it is the four stages of inclusion of inclusive leadership, and I think we have an assessment that takes 10minutes, it's perfect for leaders, it's free, and they can get like a printout and sort of a score on you know, where are they in the continuum of growth.And maybe that would then lead to a coaching conversation,which could lead to some ideas for how they can get more exposure to certain lived experiences, right, that Rubik's Cube, right, understand some more of their cubes, but also,perhaps get comfortable being uncomfortable, turn their Rubik's Cube around, and maybe,maybe share their diversity dimensions, you know, I think it's, it's especially powerful when a leader in the majority group in leadership, which tends to be male tends to be white,share something that's on the back of their Rubik's Cube,like, it's a very powerful thing. It's good practice for vulnerability, it's good practice for inclusive leadership, but it also gives you a way in to say, Hey, I'm not just going to ask you to be vulnerable, and bring your full self like, I'm going to work on that. Because that's, that's available to me too and important. Yeah. So I think that you can hold some space for that leader to really find their own diversity story, to really unpack some of the biases they have, because we all have them,and maybe awakened something in them to say, I want to grow. And here's where I want to grow and progress. And, and you might even have a leader who says,hold me accountable, you know,please, you know, bring me coaching or things to read, or let me review my strategy for a difficult conversation, or I'm kicking off this, you know,affinity group launch, you know,and I want to say something very personal. I think we can support leaders to lead on this, but I think they need some help. Some support, like some safe space,some encouragement, some ideas around, like, what can I possibly say? Because I think a lot of people are stuck in that.

 

David Turetsky: 32:56

And let me just suggest that when you're talking to a leader who says, Well, I really don't have anything, ask them about their family, you know, don't get too personal.Right? Say, you know, what did your mom go through? You know,are you and I think you mentioned this as well, you know, are you the first college educated person in your family?Right? Or, you know, tell us a story about the immigration of your grandparents, right, what did they struggle through? And think about how you can maybe turn it one of the stories or learnings there into something where then then go, oh, well,yeah, I guess that is very similar to a lot of the people today, who are coming to us who are also, you know, in that situation as well. So maybe they could turn some of their experiences into some kind of understanding.

 

Jennifer Brown: 33:39

I think with permission, you know, kids stories, like you say, Are the kids are bringing things home that many parents of our generation, which we dominate those leadership ranks are just we don't even know. It's like,we're speaking a different language. And I think, but I think speaking about what you're learning about inclusivity, from your kids, or from that generation, in general, is very powerful. You know, speaking about that, and then saying, on the heels of that, you know,here's what I don't yet understand, here's what I'm endeavoring to learn more about,here's what I want for the world. What kind of world do you want them to have? What kind of like workplace and professional experience do you want them to have? You know, because we all if we found the workplace toxic that a lot of us were in? It's not even really an if, when we did, you know, the hope we have to build it back better,especially after a pandemic that like, threw all the cards in the deck up in the air. You know, we have such an opportunity to build this different and, you know, I really, I hope we don't squander it because we move on to the next shiny object. I really hope or we don't squander it on fighting about returned to office and, you know, it seems I don't know, I just I worry about backsliding and forgetting some of the most poignant and powerful lessons and truths that we've heard from people who are really in pain last couple of years, you know, it's our we gotta carry that forward and continue to hear that. As hard as it is and has challenged as leaders and institutions may feel that like, oh, we're so broken, we're so you know, we've got so much to fix and so much is, you know, dysfunctional. You know, look, I lead an organization too, and it's really hard. It's hard on the ego to hear things when you mean, well, when you work hard when you kind of have pulled yourself up by your bootstraps.Yes. But at the same time, you know, I say to leaders, what got you here won't get you there.And we all especially my generation needs to really, like really question I think, what is working anymore in the way I lead? And, you know, for everyone listening here, you probably have leaders saying, I just feel like I don't even, I'm like losing my grip on what used to work for me, like what my,like, my style was the like, how I defined myself as a leader.And pro tip, you know, you must be an inclusive leader, because there's no way you're going to thrive in the future, if you don't figure out how to build trust across difference and do so in an authentic way, not just a check the box way.

 

David Turetsky: 36:10

But it's an extremely aware position to say,I'm not as effective as I used to be.

 

Jennifer Brown: 36:15

Oh, yeah. Yeah,it's not fun. No, I know, and do that publicly?

 

David Turetsky: 36:24

Well, even if you do it privately, kudos, if you did it publicly, even better.

 

Dwight Brown: 36:31

Good luck. Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 36:33

Well, yeah. And then then you have to worry about your exit speech.So Jennifer, we talked about a lot today, is there anything else that we missed when we're talking about inclusivity that you wanted to talk about before we close?

 

Jennifer Brown: 36:53

Oh, thanks for that question. You know, I would say if you're not uncomfortable,you're not leading. And this should feel uncomfortable. I,you know, I, I think any habit worth having means that you're uncomfortable as you are building the discipline, right.And, but I also want to give hope, that this is some I think,a competency we can develop,I've seen it happen. In fact,I've seen very resistant people become huge champions, too. So when you're in the HR role, and you're supporting leaders have,you know, space and grace for them, I would say open the door,often, to that deeper conversation, to investigate where someone is, hold some space and encourage the imperfection showing up imperfectly, and really hold that leader as they grow.Because it's scary to grow in public. This is the problem and the conundrum of leadership.Like the one hand, we're saying,you know, what got you here won't get you there. And then we're saying, and by the way,you've got to like lead. And while you're sort of reinventing, it's a lot to ask a leader and I want I think we all deserve compassion. For the language we don't yet know how to speak, you know, when it comes to this. And yet the effort, really like celebrating the effort is so important for the encouragement piece of this because what I don't want us to lose folks who feel I just can't do this. I'm never going to I if I even I'm afraid and like,there's going to be consequences. And Jennifer's too risky. And, you know, I get all this like, No, you know, a lot of no energy and it's like, but if you don't change, how will you thrive and bring people to you in the future so that you can do brilliant things together. It's just sort of part of what you have to be know how to do. So yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 38:45

If they haven't learned how to change their leadership over the last four years?

 

Jennifer Brown: 38:49

Right? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe find another.

 

David Turetsky: 38:54

Exactly.Exactly. Jennifer, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much.

 

Jennifer Brown: 39:01

Thank you so much both.

 

Dwight Brown: 39:01

Yes. Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 39:03

Dwight, thank you.

 

Dwight Brown: 39:04

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 39:04

And thank you everybody for listening! Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 39:08

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