Neena Kovuru and Joe Kvidera – HR Tech 2022 Series Finale – Attracting and Retaining Top Talent

Connect with Neena:

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Connect with Joe:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• UKG
• Lucy AI
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 20
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 18

• “Very few organizations actually say, ‘Here’s a pathway for you. We see potential in you. Let’s see how we can help you grow.’ . . . [and] when you talk about equity, everybody needs a different ladder to climb.”
• “The biggest challenge with brining together data to answer HR questions is that there’s no consistency [from one organization to the next; from one department to the next; and from one leader to the next].”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:47

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Today we have a very special episode for you! Two interviews, the last two interviews actually, from the HR Tech 2022 Series that we recorded at the HR Tech Conference in Las Vegas, Nevada. The first is my friend Neena Kovuru. And we're gonna be talking to her about employer of choice and employee experience. And the second Joe Kvidera, talking about AI and the world of HR and what's different in 2023. So please sit back, relax and enjoy these last two interviews from the HR Tech 2022 conference. We're still recording from the 2022 HR Technology Conference here in beautiful Mandalay Bay conference center in Las Vegas, Nevada. Today, I have with me my friend, Neena Kovuru. She has now taken on a new role at UKG as the VP of HR strategy. Neena, welcome.

 

Neena Kovuru: 1:49

Thank you for having me on the show, again. Always a pleasure.

 

David Turetsky: 1:53

It is our pleasure. Today we're going to talk about something fun with Neena. But first, the one thing that no one knows about you, Neena.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:03

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna run out of these.

 

David Turetsky: 2:06

That's okay!

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:06

I do karaoke. Indian karaoke, to be specific. I was part of this group.

 

David Turetsky: 2:11

It didn't take you very long to come up with that one, by the way!

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:12

No but it's real! So I don't drink, am I saying I don't drink anymore. No, I don't sing anymore. Haven't done it since the COVID started.

 

David Turetsky: 2:19

You're in Las Vegas that that would come across very disingenuous.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:23

Maybe I should start drinking because I don't know what I'm saying anymore!

 

David Turetsky: 2:27

Well, you're having some water. So you're definitely drinking.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:29

Yes, I am.

 

David Turetsky: 2:30

So Indian karaoke.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:32

Indian karaoke. Absolutely love it.

 

David Turetsky: 2:34

Enjoy it.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:34

I love it. And I sing all the peppy songs.

 

David Turetsky: 2:37

Okay. Well, hopefully we'll hear you one of these days, we'll give you a critique. Although I have no idea what you'd be saying.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:44

If I get drunk, I can sing anything.

 

David Turetsky: 2:46

Oh, there you go! Well, maybe we'll see you later. So Neena, today, our topic is going to be Employer of Choice. And we're going to talk about a lot of different ways in which you've seen it.

 

Neena Kovuru: 2:58

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 2:58

How it's impacted through your career.

 

Neena Kovuru: 3:00

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 3:00

And what you see the future for employer of choice.

 

Neena Kovuru: 3:02

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 3:03

Let's dive in. So the first question is just easy. What is Employer of Choice?

 

Neena Kovuru: 3:08

So I think, you know, employees, when they choose a particular employer over other employers, obviously, you know, that becomes the employer of choice. But why do they choose that employer? You know, it could be one particular reason, or it could be many. Meaning an employer could be your choice, because either they are giving you innovation, and you like that, or maybe they're giving you a remote work, then you enjoy being in your home and being able to work or they are offering certain benefits. Or maybe they are offering all this packages and professional development that you think, you know, this is a place where I can actually grow, and they actually care about me. And that's why they become your employer of choice.

 

David Turetsky: 3:47

So but Employer of Choice is a strategy. It's a way in which an organization believes that they can attract the right people. And they can be what they're hoping they can have is experiential.

 

Neena Kovuru: 4:00

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 4:00

The employee experience EX for the people that work there, right?

 

Neena Kovuru: 4:04

Yes. Yeah. I mean, they are turning it into a strategy. I mean, they are thinking like, how can we become an employer of choice? Right? And what can we do so that we can separate ourselves in the market? And that's, you know, and that seems to be the way today, right? Everybody wants to be an employer of choice.

 

David Turetsky: 4:21

Yes. Yeah. And they're doing lots of things to make that impactful, like technology, like process.

 

Neena Kovuru: 4:27

Yes. Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 4:28

Like the way in which they actually go to market. Even things like that I talked about pay transparency, pay equity, and how they're publicly talking about it, how they're advertising, all those things as well.

 

Neena Kovuru: 4:40

Of course, I mean, everything comes into play here. I mean, it just depends how you want to differentiate yourself from others. And what do you want to stand up for, you know, what is my company? What is my company believe in? What kind of talent do I want to retain? You know, that's the main focus here.

 

David Turetsky: 4:55

So let's change topics a little bit and I'll go to what you think about the right way of becoming an employer of choice from an organization's perspective?

 

Neena Kovuru: 5:06

So I think, you know, like, first of all, you have to figure out why are you doing this, right? You're doing this because you want to attract a certain kind of talent to your organization, right? And so you have to gear yourself and decide, well, what kind of an employer of choice am I going to be? Because that is the kind of talent I would like to attract and retain? And also, I would like to say, if companies haven't looked at their values, mission, vision, you know, since pre COVID, maybe it's time that they look at that, revise it if they need to, and see if they're still in the same direction. And then now you embark on deciding, okay, am I still looking for the same kind of talent or not. And lastly, I would say this, because you know, having worked in many companies, I'll say, well, if you decide you want to be a certain kind of employer of choice, then make sure that you're not just doing this for show. You're not doing this because you want it on your landing page! Do it because you mean it. And make sure that every employee in your organization understands and actually follows through it.

 

David Turetsky: 6:08

And employers will call you on it too. Because if you go out and say, one thing on your web, on the website, especially when you're in your careers page, and then you don't live up to it, you're not only gonna get people leave, but you're gonna get people leave that are very vocal about it. And whether it's Glassdoor or LinkedIn, or other places call you out on it.

 

Neena Kovuru: 6:26

That's what I've noticed. And it's funny you say that, because you know, in some of the organizations I've consulted and stuff, and I've always said this to them, like, you know, you want to be employer of choice, you have to mean it. And people, some people don't listen. And in fact, they don't even go and answer on Glassdoor. Because if you look, they claim that they are an employer of choice, right? But you go on Glassdoor and look at that companies review and people are blasting them. And I actually asked this question and said, well, don't you think it's time that you go and answer them and give them and there's a we don't want? We don't want to get into feedback? If you don't want to respond back.

 

David Turetsky: 6:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, I think it's the same issue on Glassdoor as it is in Yelp, that if you have employees who are upset, you respond to them. Just like on Yelp, if you have customers who are upset with you, you respond to them. And you basically give them a chance to talk to either an ombudsman, or someone who can, or their HR person or someone who can try and make sure that whatever problem they were having gets solved. Because it's not just gonna be a problem for them. As you're saying, it's a problem for every employee.

 

Neena Kovuru: 7:30

I was set up for this orientation, which was two weeks after I had started. And I and I land in Boston, and I am down with COVID.

 

David Turetsky: 7:45

And that's why you didn't call me!

 

Neena Kovuru: 7:47

I know I didn't call you! So I'm out there. And you know, I have a corporate card, right? And I can still order whatever I want and everything, but it was really nice. My boss basically texts me and I tell them, right, I have COVID. And she says to me, what do you need? What can we get you? And you know, and they've actually delivered things for me that I asked from Walgreens, it was more because I was just exhausted.

 

David Turetsky: 8:08

Yeah.

 

Neena Kovuru: 8:08

And it wasn't like, I couldn't order things. But they took care of me all through my stay in Boston, the corporate contacts me, they send me these tests, and they say, Don't worry about work. Yeah, you can come back after two weeks. And I bring this up because you know, one of their tagline, their tagline says, our purpose is people.

 

David Turetsky: 8:24

Yeah.

 

Neena Kovuru: 8:25

Right? And I truly, in all these years, I have worked. I have never seen this anywhere. And I was really blown. You know, I was like, wow!

 

David Turetsky: 8:33

Yeah that's wonderful.

 

Neena Kovuru: 8:33

So you know, it's good that they believe in it. And you know, you become a company of choice now, right? Because you know, that you're following through. And every person in that organization is that way.

 

David Turetsky: 8:43

So let's follow up with some of the other organizations you've worked for. Because you've worked for non-profits and governmental organizations. So what do you think being an employer of choice means in some of those other types of companies?

 

Neena Kovuru: 8:54

So in public sector, I think they have a bigger challenge upon their sleeve? I feel like because, you know, in olden days, I mean, you know, I won't tell my age online but but, you know, if you look, if you're joined, if you want them public sector, you will guarantee to have great benefits even after you retired, they would pay 100%. Right, you know, and you had great retirement and you had wonderful job. Yeah, pension and you come in at eight you leave at five don't have to worry about work. But that's not true anymore. Right? Because, you know, public sector. And even when I was working and you know, talking to all these companies, they're always comparing even when they're comparing the pay scale. They are comparing themselves with other municipalities. Yeah, but if you're looking, the people are not going to other municipalities or cities, they're actually going to corporate! So why are you not changing the way your pay scales is? Why are you not changing? You know, even like simple discussions, like I would say, hey, we need money, you know, to use for rewards because people want to feel like they are appreciated, and they said, well, that is taxpayers' money. We can't do that. But but the taxpayers' money is now being used effectively! Because you have a productive workforce, an engaged workforce. So I think that public sector needs to be creative. And they need to start thinking differently because they cannot compete in this market like that.

 

David Turetsky: 10:13

No they need to take the playbook from corporations and be able to say, if we're getting good performance, maybe we should incentivize those behaviors, instead of you know, basically saying, well, that's your job, do it anyway. Right, doing a good job? Great! Pat on the back. No, you should be incentivizing those behaviors.

 

Neena Kovuru: 10:30

You know, like, I have been still talking to some of the people who work in the public sector, you know, where I was consulting and and when I was working and consulting, and people tell me, like, you know, they're being overworked right now. And one of the conversations one of them was sharing recently is that, you know, they get comp time when they're working. And the manager basically talks to her and says, like, you know, don't record the comp time, because, you know, you are now taking advantage of the company by doing this. And she said, No, I'm not, this is a benefit that is being offered by the company, and you're asking me to work overtime. So you know, these are the things that your your employee is not engaged anymore, right? Because now you're telling the employee that they shouldn't take comp time, but they have to work overtime.

 

David Turetsky: 11:13

Well it is against the law.

 

Neena Kovuru: 11:14

It is against the law. No, it is against the law. I mean, you know, but but having these kinds of conversations is not right. And you're telling you're discouraging your employees. And you know, now this person said, Hey, I'm looking to leave, because this is the kind of conversation I have with my manager. And I'm working night and day. So you know, people need to start thinking creatively if you cannot increase pay, if you cannot give better benefits or deductibles, or you know, your retirement is not great. Think about something else.

 

David Turetsky: 11:43

So are DEI, the diversity inclusion efforts, going to help employers become an employer of choice? Yeah.

 

Neena Kovuru: 11:50

And what they what I have noticed is they do is it will help employers become employers of choice if they truly believe in diversity and inclusion. It's not going to be because if you just want to jump on the bandwagon that everyone's doing it, and there are companies who are not completely, you know, into that, and they are very successful. So you know, you have to figure out, is that going to be my value? Is that what I'm going to have to attract people? And if you truly believe in it, then yes. And you know, if you look in the public sector, everybody almost has to have like diversity or inclusion. they sometimes they'll say, oh, we have now a diversity and inclusion department that is now being headed. But is it really doing what it is supposed to do? Because lot of times that a that area is actually working with employee relations to kind of work on the problems that employees have and solve those issues. But I think it's a bigger, you know, you have to think in a bigger way, right, in a more holistic way and say, well, is the organization open to inclusion? Is the organization actually involving different people from different backgrounds, cultures and mindsets? And I think that is greatly lacking. And, you know, in the in public sector, when they say diversity, lot of times they're running these reports, yes. And they're saying what gender, what age, what race?

 

David Turetsky: 13:07

What ethnicity? Yeah.

 

Neena Kovuru: 13:08

And you know, most of them are not in executive management.

 

David Turetsky: 13:11

No.

 

Neena Kovuru: 13:11

And even if they are, they don't have a say! And I know this, I have experienced this. So you know, make it real, be be authentic about it, if you want to do it, because your employees, they know what you're doing. You you can hide behind that department for one year. But afterwards, the reality is going to be out there.

 

David Turetsky: 13:30

You mentioned something about the executive leadership not being diverse.

 

Neena Kovuru: 13:34

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 13:35

There was a post on LinkedIn and someone said, What's the best measure of diversity in an organization. And I wasn't joking around when I said, it's the picture of the boards of directors, and the picture of the executive leadership team.

 

Neena Kovuru: 13:51

I agree.

 

David Turetsky: 13:51

And I went on to say, the reason is, because if I'm mirroring my organization, and the executive leadership is made up of just old white men, then people are going to look to the top and go, Well, that doesn't look like me, so I'm never gonna be able to get there. And to me, the organizations that do it right, integrate the board, integrate the executive leadership team, and I don't mean integrate for the forcing of integration. I mean, you're finding the right people who have the right skills, and it doesn't matter who they are,

 

Neena Kovuru: 14:26

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 14:26

but it mirrors what your customer base is, and it mirrors what your employee base is. And so you find people that have the right skill, have the right understanding of the business, put them in positions of leadership, and you're gonna see a dramatic change in how people feel about the organization they're working for. They'll be you'll become more of an employer of choice, and I'm gonna get to your question, because people feel like they're represented in the executive leadership team.

 

Neena Kovuru: 14:56

I think you are spot on because you know, even wherever I have work, you know, it's always been like a glass ceiling. Right? And, and you see how I pursue certifications, I'm always constantly learning and doing things. But you know, knowing that you cannot be in that space, just because of who you are is a struggle. And very few organizations actually say, here's a pathway for you, we see potential in you, let's see how we can help you grow. Because you know, as we were seeing in the conference yesterday by Miss Marshall, everybody in when you talk about equity, equity, right, everybody needs a different ladder to climb. And you know, I may need something different in order to be successful in an organization. So you have to provide every person who is different coming from different backgrounds a different vehicle in order to be successful.

 

David Turetsky: 15:43

Beautifully said.

 

Neena Kovuru: 15:44

thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 15:45

I gotta be honest with you that that's actually a great way of explaining it. Because people always ask, How can I achieved the next level if my boss never leaves? But the answer isn't just going straight up a ladder, the answer might be taking different ladders,

 

Neena Kovuru: 16:03

Of course!

 

David Turetsky: 16:03

and so their path may need to be different. And we don't show them the path. And this is where I think transparency is going to help is because transparency enables us to make decisions, better decisions about our careers, and about our lives. Because we can see which way we want to go, not which way you're telling me to go.

 

Neena Kovuru: 16:21

I completely agree. And that's, that's another thing that's lacking in organizations is transparency. And even though it would come up in surveys, right? And in organizations that I worked with, and said, hey, there is an issue, people don't trust the management. They're like, well, the numbers are not right, the service, you haven't put the survey in the right fashion. No one wants to listen that there is a problem. And until you're ready, and you know, I was reading something, and the person said, you know, check your ego at the door as a leader, because as a leader, you have to be open to listening to what the problems are, because you are the one everyone's looking at.

 

David Turetsky: 16:55

Yes.

 

Neena Kovuru: 16:56

And in public sector, it's always top down what the leaders in the in the public sector are doing is how the employees and other people are going to behave and listen. So you know, you have you have to step up.

 

David Turetsky: 17:09

I think you just can drop the mic and walk away. And that's exactly where we're going to leave. So, Neena, we've talked about Employer of Choice. We've talked about the ways in which you can achieve employer of choice. And we've also talked about the benefits of DEI to Employer of Choice. Is there anything else you wanted to cover before we close?

 

Neena Kovuru: 17:26

Just one thing, I think companies that can achieve, you know, great place to work designation that is out there that can solidify their claim to being you know, employer of choice. So that's, that's a really cool place, they should check it out. There is independent questionnaires and surveys, and if they truly believe they're there, if not, it can it can certainly show them what are the pitfalls and what's wrong.

 

David Turetsky: 17:47

I'd like to say that would be a good audit for companies to take. So even if they're not currently Employer of Choice, it'll show them where they're deficient.

 

Neena Kovuru: 17:54

Exactly. Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 17:56

And like you were talking about before they need to check their ego at the door before they take it.

 

Neena Kovuru: 18:00

They may be surprised!

 

David Turetsky: 18:01

Yeah, exactly. Neena, it's a pleasure as always to talk to you. Thank you so much.

 

Neena Kovuru: 18:06

Thank you for having me on the show.

 

David Turetsky: 18:08

My pleasure. And hopefully we'll have you back again soon!

 

Neena Kovuru: 18:10

Thank you.

 

Announcer: 18:11

Like what you hear so fa? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now, back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 18:22

Today we have with us a fascinating guest, Joe Kvidera who is with Lucy. Joe! Tell us about yourself and tell us about what Lucy is.

 

Joe Kvidera: 18:29

Thanks. Yeah, Joe Kvidera. I'm Lucy's global VP of sales, and joined Lucy about a year and a half ago. And really what Lucy has is an answer engine for all of your unstructured enterprise data. So the best way to think about it is if you have data in PowerPoints, PDFs, Word documents, audio, video files, you can simply ask Lucy a question, and she provides you directly with that answer.

 

David Turetsky: 18:51

She goes, looks through all that unstructured

 

Joe Kvidera: 18:57

She does. Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 18:59

One that's conversational as well. Correct?

 

Joe Kvidera: 19:01

Correct. To point yeah, so she will respond back stuff and constructs a structured answer. in like Teams and Slack. So interact where the people are at and engaging today.

 

David Turetsky: 19:08

Yeah, we do a lot of our work in Teams and I think that sometimes I don't get back from humans what I'm asking for structured, so you know, hopefully.

 

Joe Kvidera: 19:16

Yeah, typically, we try to make sure Lucy responds in four to six seconds, because your colleagues typically aren't always there. So we try to make sure you get an answer.

 

David Turetsky: 19:23

And by the way, I was kidding. I love the people I work with and they definitely get back to me, but not necessarily within four to six seconds. So tell me one thing that no one knows about Joe?

 

Joe Kvidera: 19:33

One thing that no one knows about Joe? No one or most people?

 

David Turetsky: 19:37

Well, because no one knows Lucy in the HR space. I think you can kind of just give us like something that not most people know about you.

 

Joe Kvidera: 19:50

I lost everything, literally midway through my career, completely lost everything personally and professionally and started over and it was the best thing that ever happened to me from a professional basis. You learn a lot when things are going well, but you'll learn a whole heck of

 

David Turetsky: 20:08

I've told people, and I tell, especially a lot more when everything around you crumbles. people in mentoring, the best thing that could ever happen to you is failure.

 

Joe Kvidera: 20:15

100%

 

David Turetsky: 20:16

Because you never know success until you know what it's like to fail. And I failed a lot in my lifetime. I'm working on my second divorce right now. I am I, I've been let go from jobs at various places of my life, not necessarily because of my own doing. But you know, we have to all own it, though. That was a really great one. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. So let's talk about our topic for today. Our topic for today is 2022. What surprised us what what surprised you what you learned in 2022, about the world of HR, and HR technology, if you'd like. And also then what your prediction is for 2023. But let's just start with 2022 and the world of 2022.

 

Joe Kvidera: 20:58

Yeah. For us what we learned, you know, in 2022, HR was a new market for us. And what we found in engaging in the market and the between the conferences that we've been at, as well as just engaging in the use cases with the HR teams. Is there the questions that they ask and are driving towards is really becoming less and less about what's important to the company versus more and more of what's important to the actual employees and the users? How does this benefit them? How is this going to help them. And it's a change that's not even just in the HR space, but just in general, like it was the first time in my career that I'm actually dealing with a market that people are actually asking about the end users of the technology and the employees that are part of that organization.

 

David Turetsky: 21:41

What's crazy about employees is that there's a lot of them. And they all have different needs, and they all have different wants. And they all are in different stages of their life. And when we try and broad brush the word employee as a unified thought, it's certainly not. There are employees who are executives, there are employees who are hourly workers, there are employees who are gig workers. And so the different needs across the entire organization, even outside the organization, like people who are candidates for jobs, or interviewees. They're all different, they all have different needs.

 

Joe Kvidera: 22:15

Oh, absolutely. And that's where we've definitely fallen into. And what's been interesting, though, is that they're focused on it. I mean, it's always those needs have always been there. But the fact that the conversations that we're having in this space and HR specifically, is that there's the conversation is focused around that, not just a checkbox, right.

 

David Turetsky: 22:34

So HR is founded on kind of the management of employees and being able to provide the right employee in the right place in the right time, you know, we can't all blame hiring managers for hiring the wrong person. And so the HR organizations always kind of been that area of the company that's been focused on that, right.

 

Joe Kvidera: 22:53

Yeah, absolutely. But always coming from my background, I've, you know, been at a lot of larger organizations as well, as well as actually, you know, starting in front of my own business, even though that function is there for the employees, there's still that underlying, they're there, because the company needs them to be there. It is not, you know, how do we how do we really shift and make it about them versus about, you know, just the company.

 

David Turetsky: 23:12

A lot of the conversations I've had recently with people, especially today, are HR functions, becoming more of the business, and HR policies, HR programs, HR technologies, being seen as business technologies, not just being seen as HR. You're coming from the business into HR, what's your perspective on that?

 

Joe Kvidera: 23:32

I agree. 100%, right. I mean, it's really kind of becoming the core of a lot of the conversations that we've had, you know, the past 12 plus months have been around, how do we make that centric for them? Right? Again, how does that become the base? And it's really not just there's all these point solutions everywhere that can do all these great things. But how do we wrap things into a cohesive, moving forward so that, again, better for the employee engagement, and their experienced as an employee of the organization.

 

David Turetsky: 23:56

So let's talk a little bit about what you learned about data. Because obviously, in what you do data centric, remember, we're not talking about Lucy in specific but we're talking about in the world of conversational AI, the AI has to get trained on being able to get access to a whole bunch of data, and the data structured and unstructured. So what have you seen in terms of the challenges of bringing together all that structured and unstructured data to be able to answer HR questions?

 

Joe Kvidera: 24:21

Yeah, the biggest challenge is there's no consistent consistency. Right?

 

David Turetsky: 24:25

Right.

 

Joe Kvidera: 24:26

And it's from one organization to the next, from one department to the next, and one leader to the next things change. So the challenge is, how do you take all that disparate data to your point, both structured and unstructured? Obviously, structure is gonna have a lot more consistency around and formulation,

 

David Turetsky: 24:39

we hope,

 

Joe Kvidera: 24:40

exactly. You can hope or at least query query something and get a response.

 

David Turetsky: 24:44

Right.

 

Joe Kvidera: 24:44

If there's something in that field, but the unstructured there's no consistent format, right? There is not this is how you have to structure your the employee manual. This is not how you have to structure their PTO policy, or their medical benefits and nobody knows how to get that right. And all that data, you know, historically especially when you look at the AI side of it, is a lot of things still managed by a human behind it, trying to take it and try to manually curate it and decide what needs to be done. And so there's some AI, but it's the challenge of how do you drive consistency when there is none.

 

David Turetsky: 25:13

One of the things that you just mentioned, which is kind of funny, especially on consistency is you may have inside one company, a plant, and then how it has its own policies and procedures for how things get done. And then that, that maybe there's a worker who has worked at that plant, but then gets transferred to another plant. And so now the rules might be completely different. And, you know, thinking about that, how do you make sure that the rules that are served up to people, and the policies that are served up to people are accurate? I mean, obviously, we're a lot of indicative data. But remember, HR data trails sometimes people don't put in their transactions right away.

 

Joe Kvidera: 25:50

No that that's critical. I mean, the critical is getting to your point. Funny enough, we actually say the right answer the right people at the right time.

 

David Turetsky: 25:56

Yeah.

 

Joe Kvidera: 25:56

And that's, that's actually what we say at Lucy, and that's, it goes hand in hand with what you just said there is because that's so important for that, and making sure that it's relevant to them. And we had some conversations earlier to the International Organization of, you know, not only just between the US and European market, but inside the European market now even more more, you know, like with California with the CCPA. Oh, what other states are gonna adopt that?

 

David Turetsky: 26:19

Yeah.

 

Joe Kvidera: 26:19

And how do you ensure that you're getting the answer to the person that's asking that question that's there? Because, like, when you look at like medical insurance and the policies, state by state, right, I mean, there's so many these policies are different from state by state, let alone, you know, plant to plant?

 

David Turetsky: 26:33

Well, it could also be town to town. I mean, there are some municipalities, and especially like cities that have different rules for taxation, and for working and for, you know, disclosure of things or breaks, even like in California, you know, meal breaks and things like that. So, there's so much difference there. It's almost like there needs to be this, I guess, Google on the back end, to make sure. And actually, I wouldn't, because everything on the internet is is correct. We need to we need to make sure that when someone asks a question, and maybe the answer is sometimes that has to be given is, we'll get back to you. Because maybe sometimes research needs to happen to actually get something to come back.

 

Joe Kvidera: 27:13

Yeah, no, right. I mean, getting back to you is sometimes maybe the an answer that the company wants to provide, because I want to make sure, but it's not what the employees want.

 

David Turetsky: 27:22

No, but but if you're expected to give a really complex answer back in four to six seconds, then you need to have like, everything and, and as far as we're talking about, especially with the complexities that we're getting into around municipalities and their taxation, or their meal break plans and whatnot, or the meal break rules, you know, parcel those things in four to six seconds is a lot.

 

Joe Kvidera: 27:46

It is a lot.

 

David Turetsky: 27:47

Yeah. And by the way, I'm not asking you about your company's capability about it. I'm saying that, you know, hopefully the right answer, especially when they talk to somebody talks to their consultant and they say, Hey, do you know what the answer to this question is? And sometimes the answer has to be No, I'll get back to you.

 

Joe Kvidera: 28:01

Exactly. You have to. And that's it. I mean, so you have to have a if I didn't have a good answer, check here for other potential options.

 

David Turetsky: 28:08

Now, when people use Siri, and it doesn't know the answer, it usually brings up the web, and it brings up the top five answers from Google or something. So hopefully, conversational AI goes beyond that. Because I've given presentations in the past where I've derided Siri and other chatbots that we use on a consumer basis. And we've been lulled to sleep, by the way on the consumer side with chatbots giving us crappy hand, I was going to use another word giving us crappy answers back to questions that are should be pretty inane.

 

Joe Kvidera: 28:39

Yes, I completely agree. And I think you're being polite with your other answer that you're gonna provide us.

 

David Turetsky: 28:44

I try to be polite. We're not an explicit podcast. So I can't be I can't say exactly what I'd like to. Let's talk about things that didn't surprise you in 2022. What didn't surprise you?

 

Joe Kvidera: 28:54

What did not surprise us is the workforce being more and more disparate, less centralized, more and more organizations that are going away from physical offices. So the challenge is, how do you how do people communicate? How do they, you know, there's no more watercooler talk. You don't walk past HR's office for a quick two second conversation and say, Hey, can you answer this for me? You have to block time on someone's calendar, but it's blocked from eight to five. So how do you get your answer?

 

David Turetsky: 29:18

Well, you try getting him on Zoom. But the Zoom has that little circle red circle, a white little line in it that says, Don't bother me right now.

 

Joe Kvidera: 29:27

That's exactly it. So that didn't surprise us. I mean, that's continuing, right. I mean, I think it's expanding more. I think the we're seeing less and less of traditional return to office. So it's what people thought maybe there was a pause on what we had to do. I think that it's not I mean, I think the pause is unpaused and it's continuing the flow.

 

David Turetsky: 29:45

Absolutely. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any To the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind, go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. Let's talk a little bit, let's turn and put on our prognostication hat and say, what would your predictions be for 2023?

 

Joe Kvidera: 30:20

I think it's going to exponentially increase. Right? I think with the market that we have as a whole, there's some uncertainty, obviously, just in the generalized market that's ongoing. And I think with that people are gonna want to get as much certainty as they can. So I think we're gonna continue to see that where they want to one work for themselves, you know, the remote work the work from anywhere. I even tried to stop not using the work from home, right? It should be though work from anywhere. Right? Where is that? If yeah, if you're on a boat with a with a hotspot in the middle of the ocean, but you got great zoom coverage then great. Why does it matter what

 

David Turetsky: 30:50

Exactly. Well, unless a 30 foot wave is coming your background is? at you.

 

Joe Kvidera: 30:55

That would be bad.

 

David Turetsky: 30:55

Yeah.

 

Joe Kvidera: 30:56

But we think it's gonna continue to see that, right, the more and more disparate. And being able to try to tie try to try to tie the company culture to that, I think is the challenge that I think a lot of organizations have is, as a company is going to continue to disperse. How do you enforce that culture that you've, you know, a lot of these companies have taken years to build or startups? How do you enforce that and build it when they're just starting?

 

David Turetsky: 31:17

Well, I think that's the reason why a lot of the command and control companies that I mentioned before on the podcast, like Jamie Dimon, saying that JPMorgan, we're going to work from the office, because they don't want to give up that control. They haven't changed the culture in their minds from the command and control, I see you, I know you're working, I can look over your shoulder to the, you know, what's worked via zoom, let's give you rules in which you know, you got to work from nine to five, you got to do this or that. I'll give you some flexibility, but don't mess around on that flexibility.

 

Joe Kvidera: 31:47

Agreed. I think the I think the going into 23, there's gonna be more and more of the worker demanding the flexibility, worker being in control, when you talk about command and control, because in the market, right, just trying to hire people and find people is harder and harder. So the workers control more. And you know, just because it's actually as I have a conversation with my daughter, she did an internship, and it's remote because she's in California, that company is based in Atlanta, it's remote, but you have to be online at 6am. And you have to have your camera on and you're done at 4. I'm like that's not remote work. I mean, come on, let's be real here.

 

David Turetsky: 32:18

Well, it is because they're not forcing her to be there. And they are allowing her to work from home. Yeah. And you're right. If the have to have the camera on the whole time. That's harsh.

 

Joe Kvidera: 32:28

That's very harsh.

 

David Turetsky: 32:29

Really harsh, especially if I have bad hair days all the time. Well, as my mom says, I have a face for radio. But you know, we we don't necessarily because that's a little intrusive.

 

Joe Kvidera: 32:38

Very.

 

David Turetsky: 32:38

And so she might want to test the boundaries of that.

 

Joe Kvidera: 32:41

Oh yeah. No, absolutely. And I think that it goes back to again, the control side of it. Right, I think that we're gonna continue to see the more employee control. And then but still demanding the capability to perform their job in a condensed timeframe, right that that they can overachieve and be more efficient in the way that they are working and demanding the tools in the tool sets to do that.

 

David Turetsky: 33:01

I was talking to Chris Havrilla, yesterday who works at Oracle and we were talking about talking about results of a worker not from a productivity standard, or standpoint, but looking at it from the output perspective, measuring an employee on what they've produced, not how much they've produced or not the quantity of production. And her her thought process is that we change our metric, and we come up with a new way of thinking about it. And I think what that'll help us do, especially in the future, is not worry about when you work or where you work, but that you actually got done while you're supposed to get done.

 

Joe Kvidera: 33:39

Exactly. I think if you look at what the universities did over the past couple of years, where they had asynchronous education classes, and then he gets very much similar I like I talked with my team about it. It's the output, not the input.

 

David Turetsky: 33:49

Exactly.

 

Joe Kvidera: 33:50

If you can accomplish your goal and hit your numbers in a shorter timeframe, it's about the output. If they can do that in two hours, so then then maybe we need to look at the output in a different way that maybe it wasn't right target.

 

David Turetsky: 34:00

Exactly.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:00

But I agree. It should be the output of the results that we're trying to achieve. Not what did it take for you to get there because every every person is gonna be different.

 

David Turetsky: 34:07

Absolutely.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:07

And as long as we're measuring the same output that's what we should be focused on

 

David Turetsky: 34:10

Exactly. Any other predictions for 2023?

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:15

The Vikings will not win the Super Bowl coming from Minnesota.

 

David Turetsky: 34:21

Hey, listen,

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:21

I'm a realist.

 

David Turetsky: 34:21

had just beaten the Packers for context, because this is going to air a while from now.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:27

They will not, I said will not.

 

David Turetsky: 34:28

Listen, my giants are undefeated right now. 1-0

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:34

They will definitely, I'll put money on that they will hold true. So I'm a realist Vikings fan.

 

David Turetsky: 34:39

There you go. Well, we're gonna check that prediction, Joe, and I'm gonna get back with you next year to see if that actually didn't happen.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:47

Looking forward to it.

 

David Turetsky: 34:47

Joe, thank you very much. It was wonderful to have you.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:49

Thank you

 

David Turetsky: 34:50

And take care. And hopefully we'll do this again soon.

 

Joe Kvidera: 34:53

Likewise,

 

Announcer: 34:54

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