Maya Huber – HR Tech 2022 Series – Understanding Competencies and Their Role in Recruitment

Connect with Maya:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

 

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• TaTiO
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 11
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 9

• “Competencies are not skills—because there’s movement about skill-based hiring. . . . But [the skill] depends on the context. It’s the context [in which the skill is used] that matters. That’s competency.”
• “Resumes and [the current] application process were invented a long, long time ago. I want my kids to grow up to say, ‘Resume: are people still using those?’ ”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find fascinating people inside and outside the world of HR to tell you what's going on with the latest and greatest in HR data analytics, technology and process. As we've been doing over the last few days, we're recording at the 2022 HR Technology Conference in beautiful Mandalay Bay Convention Center in Las Vegas, Nevada. Today, we have with me, my friend, new friend, Maya Huber. From TaTiO.io. She is the co-founder and CEO, Maya, welcome.

 

Maya Huber: 1:24

Thank you so much, David, I'm so excited to be here.

 

David Turetsky: 1:27

And we're excited to have you. Give us a little bit about who TaTiO.io is and what you do with them.

 

Maya Huber: 1:33

Okay, so TaTiO connects companies and job seekers based on competencies alone. So basically, we do a reverse engineering of the recruiting process. And instead of sourcing, interviewing, assessing people, we are sourcing and assessing people first, based on your competencies, so recruiters will do what they love to do with interview people with only relevant ones, right?

 

David Turetsky: 1:58

So you're really basically bringing the right people to an opportunity to the recruiter before so they don't actually have to sort everything out first.

 

Maya Huber: 2:09

Yes. So of course, it's scary, more efficient process, but it's not just about that, you probably know and your audience probably know, there's the population of untapped people in this workforce is massive, estimated 27 million every year. Those people are not not necessarily come from underprivileged populations, or you know, diversity, it's not that issue. Those are people who have great skills. Most of them are underemployed for a couple of reasons. But one of the reason is that people are not exposed enough to jobs, what job is required, right. And the markets kept changing all the time. So if you grow up in this, you're in a specific environment. This is what you get with your, you know, your family of doctors, you you learn that. And and I think COVID, but it was before COVID people right now, changing career rapidly. So it's not linear anymore. You can, you know, so many people out here, you know, went through for managing to be uber drivers. Then to focus on the arts.

 

David Turetsky: 3:10

They zig-zagged. Yeah.

 

Maya Huber: 3:11

So for me, it's not just about creating more effective process to bring people that companies never seen before, but also in a way they never seen before. So focusing on data, focusing on competency.

 

David Turetsky: 3:24

Excellent. So, we're gonna be talking a little bit about sourcing and recruiting and competencies and all that great stuff. First, though, what's one fun thing that no one knows about you?

 

Maya Huber: 3:38

Hmm. Okay, so not a lot of people know, but actually, I'm an occupational therapist.

 

David Turetsky: 3:45

You are, really?

 

Maya Huber: 3:47

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 3:48

And so you have an OT background?

 

Maya Huber: 3:50

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 3:50

Wow.

 

Maya Huber: 3:51

My PhD is a combination of occupational therapy and career development, job analysis and

 

David Turetsky: 3:58

Job analysis?

 

Maya Huber: 3:59

Yes, these my expertise. Yeah.

 

David Turetsky: 4:00

Wow, I really want to get one in job analysis. I mean, I love that stuff. For people who know me, you know, I love job evaluation, job analysis.

 

Maya Huber: 4:08

So for years, I was working in integrating people with disabilities or underrepresented population as an occupational therapy. This is we're ready to integrate them at work in the workforce. So after 15 years of doing that, working for the government as well, I got frustrated for from two things. First of all, I see I saw that the market hasn't really changed. And second, to be honest, I couldn't work for the government anymore.

 

David Turetsky: 4:38

That's great.

 

Maya Huber: 4:38

I guess this is another fun thing you know about me.

 

David Turetsky: 4:41

That is a very honest thing to say. So let's get to the topic. So what we want to try and talk about is how to use competencies and kind of really understand competencies in the world of recruiting and what's new about it, right?

 

Maya Huber: 5:01

Yeah. So first of all, I want to explain why I'm talking about competencies not skills. Because there's a there's a movement about skills based hiring. People talk about that all the time. But most of the solution I see I saw here in the last decade are focusing around skills, but they asked people about their skills.

 

David Turetsky: 5:20

Yes.

 

Maya Huber: 5:21

And when you asked me about my skills, first of all, I can say pretty much everything.

 

David Turetsky: 5:24

Yes. And they do and people do.

 

Maya Huber: 5:27

Absolutely. And not because they mean wrong. It just because, you know, for example, I can tell you, I'm extremely creative. Okay. But it depends on the context. Right? So I am bad at art. But I'm creative thinking. So it's not just about skills, it's the context that matter, right, what we do is we simulate jobs.

 

David Turetsky: 5:52

So what you're talking about is simulating the environment, about the skill. So that context being everything, they're actually, I don't want to use the word forced, but they're forced to use that skill in that context. So we can test for that specific thing. And not explain it to them, but have them live in.

 

Maya Huber: 6:14

Exactly. So it's more about performance, or proven skills than skill. So that's why a competency is for me, it's where the market should be. And I think, and again, we talked about people and career change, we're talking about people that do not know enough about jobs. And you know, I must tell you, I'm amazed since I started this journey. Our people do not know even about basic jobs, what they should know.

 

David Turetsky: 6:41

Yes.

 

Maya Huber: 6:41

I just I met, week ago a candy factory. And a manager told me you know, people come over, and they're surprised, that you need to wrap candies into boxes. And this is a candy factory. And we see more and more and more. And because there are so many, you know, new opportunities, and new career paths that we both people do not know jobs.

 

David Turetsky: 7:00

Sure.

 

Maya Huber: 7:01

And also, there's always that gap that gap between, am I qualified? Am I overqualified? One of my best friends works the TV industry. A producer for 20 years. COVID came, and she said, Okay, I can't work in TV, you know, there were closing TV shows and project shows, she said, Okay, I will be a secretary, you know, we'll take a year off just work. And she got those those answers that she's not, she's overqualified. And she needed to explain, to cross the gap and to tell them you know, I know how to manage people, I can operate a lot of, you know, programs or projects at the same time, I will be an amazing secretary for your office manager. And I think this is where the market should be, I always share my story, again, like I share with you, I'm an OT, I come from HR, I wanted a career change, again, not for working for the government anymore. And no one will look at my resume to be a product. So you know, I created this gig company to figure it out. But there's so many people out there like me, and I think when you look at the future of work, it's not about finding new solutions. It's about paradigm change.

 

David Turetsky: 8:22

One of the things that I've talked to people about at the conference, this, this whole week, has been trying to find a way of being able to eliminate the resume,

 

Maya Huber: 8:33

Oh, god.

 

David Turetsky: 8:34

to stop putting, frankly, bullshit on a page. And having the AI in the recruiting software go well, you know, that doesn't have our keyword. So we're gonna kick it out, even though that person could be the literally the best person in the world for that job. And I've been talking to people about ways in which we could certify that people had these competencies or the skills or whatever it is, or the experience in order to be able to do that job. But we can't prove it. And we certainly can't prove it in the environment that a company is is dealing with, I can't simulate that company. Right?

 

Maya Huber: 9:18

Why?

 

David Turetsky: 9:19

Because that would have to mean

 

Maya Huber: 9:21

It is too specific you mean?

 

David Turetsky: 9:22

Well, it's specific from a culture perspective, or from a process perspective, or what's the word, there are specific steps that just are for this company, even though it might be a job that's rather routine, like driving for Uber or Lyft, right? You could drive for Uber or Lyft. But you have to get certified in each one. You have to do all the right things in each one. So it's not necessarily purely transferable, unless you go through the processes and each one there might be different standard operating procedures.

 

Maya Huber: 9:50

Yeah, and I understand what you mean.

 

David Turetsky: 9:52

Okay.

 

Maya Huber: 9:52

But you see, that's where job analysis have the key. Because when you look at jobs and what are the main core tasks each and every job. Like, it could be a driver, but it could be sales guide could whatever, okay, customer care, even a picker in a warehouse or manager of a team, Team Lead. They are core tasks that repeat themselves that they're mandatory. So right, you cannot be a customer care representative if you do not have amazing service orientation skills, right?

 

David Turetsky: 10:26

People skills, yeah.

 

Maya Huber: 10:27

People skills. Yeah. Or you cannot be a good salesperson if you don't have proactive behavior.

 

David Turetsky: 10:34

Yes.

 

Maya Huber: 10:35

So I think there and there's data there, a couple of companies, companies in this industry hold a deep knowledge about the market that was collected from research and from job analysis, and from talking to the clients and reading through the market. And I think we should use this data to create a new standard, the data is there.

 

David Turetsky: 10:59

Are you talking about with a taxonomy of jobs, being able to have all of those operating procedures or whatever they are, that are assigned to each one of these jobs, so that we're basically building a standard taxonomy that everybody can point to and say, this is that job, this is what it does.

 

Maya Huber: 11:21

Exactly. And be more objective and concrete, when I see those job posts about companies want a team player, motivated employee, you know, motivation comes with the job and the context and environment, and culture. Exactly. And I believe that we

 

David Turetsky: 11:32

culture need to bring back power to recruiters to be the ones that are not the they will deal with the culture fit with the personal interaction between the manager and that particular employee that is about to onboard and not and be more specific about what they're looking for in a candidate in an objective way. There's objective that it's not optional that it be objective anymore. And I think it's that but also be open minded, and more creative. About, you know, when you meet a person, when I guess, when recruiters look at me and my resume with this HR experience, want to be in product, the instead of thinking, it's, it's a mistake, it's probably got there by accident, let's, you know, maybe if a manager will look up and say, Oh, she, this is interesting. I wonder why she applied. Let's have a talk with her. But to get to that stage, though, Maya, a person has to actually look at your resume. A person has to look at your profile. With where we are today with technology, it's a very rare thing, isn't it that that recruiter is actually getting your resume?

 

Maya Huber: 12:51

Absolutely. My vision about this market is that we need to stop focusing by automating a broken process, and to fix it. And to bring it back to you know, when my parents started work, there was not that so many jobs out there. People were it was easier to explore jobs, right?

 

David Turetsky: 13:13

Well you actually looked in the newspaper, typically, or you knew somebody.

 

Maya Huber: 13:17

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 13:18

It was your family,

 

Maya Huber: 13:19

Family, neighbor. Yeah. It was all around your neighborhood. Right now. We're a global, there are so many opportunities out there. It's tough to learn. And I think a combination of where tech brought us in terms of AI, and data driven technology. And and, of course, where the future's on that space with, you know, great promise, and a combination of what of the future of work and what career path look today. We have to change the way we recruit. And we have to start with the way we source people. No one anymore wants to be judgment based on his resume, or application form or his LinkedIn profile.

 

David Turetsky: 14:03

Right. But that's all they have. I mean, especially if you talk about resume and cover letter that they have to put out. I mean, people aren't getting past the resume because of the parsing and those keywords and AI baloney there. If somebody went to my LinkedIn, and saw my profile, and they said, Well, we're hiring for a leader and people analytics. And you know, I'm not Al Adamson. I didn't write the book on people analytics. I was going to write a book on people analytics, and I've been I've having a podcast on people analytics for two years, but never got a chance. And I'm not complaining, by the way. I love what I do. But I've never gotten a chance to actually interview for those jobs. And I don't know why. I've gotten five seconds after I've applied. Thank you very much. You have a great resume a great background, but we're looking at other candidates. You didn't look at my resume. You didn't look at my background, you don't know me, you didn't even got on my LinkedIn and see who I am.

 

Announcer: 15:05

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David Turetsky: 15:16

So how do you make that shift between the complete automation and AI going? Five seconds in to being really vetted the way things used to be, as I said, with with another person before Back to the Future?

 

Maya Huber: 15:33

Yeah, I think we need to educate the market. This is what we are dealing with lot, you know, the basic assumption that if you interview someone basis, based on his competencies, and not, if you will not see even a word from his resume is really tough to for recruiters and managers. And we still have clients working with us working with our platform, and then you know, asking us, can you all send over a resume? No, we will not send over a resume.

 

David Turetsky: 16:03

But that's ingrained there. It's built into their DNA. That old artifact, it's a it's a badge people have to wear when they walk into that building.

 

Maya Huber: 16:16

I think, right, right. Now, when this situation in the market where you know, it's a candidate market. And companies across industries are struggling, struggling, sorry, they hopefully, they will have no choice to look at people different because, you know, the companies will need different sources of candidates. So hopefully, they will be open to different strategies to, to source them or to look at them. But yeah, I totally agree. It's really massive change that requires in the market in the perspective of the market.

 

David Turetsky: 16:50

So let me ask a different question, though. Is this true of all types of jobs? Or is it really focused on the knowledge worker, because companies are mostly hiring in the United States, at least, mostly hiring more blue collar jobs, more hourly paid jobs, not as many salaried or professional jobs? I mean, it's like, it's a difference of like two thirds, 1/3, or even more dramatic, it's more like probably 70%, or more

 

Maya Huber: 17:19

for blue collar

 

David Turetsky: 17:19

for blue collar jobs. So how does that fit in a world where if you're testing skills on a blue collar basis? Is it really getting the physical testing? Or is it really still about competencies?

 

Maya Huber: 17:33

Of course, it will be better if you can test, you Right. So you also don't want to judge that based on someone's know, people, physical abilities as well, technical, you know, technical skills. But tech is not there. And I think we also need to be really careful with not, you know, complex everything complex. When companies asked me about, again, we worked with blue collar, and when they asked me about how will I know if we have if they will be able to carry, you know, carry items or whatever, right? And I'll say with a resume you don't know as well. picture or based on, you know, looking at a person. Absolutely, yeah. So you know, we will not, although I want to save the world, right, we need to start and I think if the first step, if, in a year from now, by next HR tech conference, there will be more companies that are doing, they're dealing with competencies, I will be happy. Because right now, I don't see that much I know they are in the market. And hopefully companies will be more and more open to that for your question, that this perspective is relevant for any job. Of course, that engaging candidate through any type of competencies assessment will be more complex, where, you know, in with C level in place, of course, but there are experts engagement, will bring them on, right, connect first engage versus and we'll

 

David Turetsky: 18:59

there you go. So let me ask another really stupid make it question. And you might say, well, you know, it is what it is. Competencies change over time, and people change over time. So is this something that needs to happen on a rather routine basis? Do you have to keep testing people or the fact that they're actually doing the jobs and performance evaluation takes care of it? What what's the kind of frequency by which people need to continually be assessed, and we need to continue to assess the competency platform?

 

Maya Huber: 19:32

That's a good question. I think this is that requires deep data analysis. So I don't want to answer that, you know, from my sleeve, but I think that we need to keep all options open to candidates. So if the candidate will feel they need to do it again to prove something different, or to try out something else or to show different competencies they will do that. But I think it's you know, we need to cross the bar from talking about when you cross the bar from talking about words, okay, in resume or application, whatever, to competencies, it calls for different types of measurement. That will be more objective there. There. Probably dozens of those, if not more. And there are so many people, smart people in the business or in this industy, we need to figure it out. But I guess the main issue is that I believe that the current process is not effective any more.

 

David Turetsky: 20:32

Oh no the current process is broken, obviously.

 

Maya Huber: 20:35

And you know, people are so frustrated by that.

 

David Turetsky: 20:38

Yeah, they're frustrated, and there's nothing they can do about it. And I'm talking about candidates. I'm talking about people who've gotten that five second email. By the way, the form letter by the please, I beg of all of you, if you have a recruiting system, and you haven't checked to see if that form letter actually fills in the right data, instead of it saying your name when it comes to me, please. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. Anyway, the one last thing I want to ask you, what's your prediction for 2023. So we're back here next year at HR tech. You and I are sitting right here, hopefully more comfortable chairs. And we're having a conversation about where's the market gone in terms of competencies? And in terms of how do we get the right people to the recruiter? What do you think has changed? In one year's time?

 

Maya Huber: 21:55

I believe we will see more and more companies that want you remember, I was the beginning of diversity. When it was the first company check it out. I believe that in a year from now, that's where you're going to be. So that will be the trend that will everybody will talk about about competency about skills based hiring. And they and I believe that companies will you know that they will have the knowledge that this is something they need to do need to learn more about, and they will come here to find solutions.

 

David Turetsky: 22:26

Do you think there are enough od professionals in these organizations to be able to withstand that though, because you need to have od people in your team to ensure that they have the right taxonomies they have the right skill, at least the right assessment.

 

Maya Huber: 22:41

Of course, it will be helpful or you know, if there you will have od in each company. But there's there's the reason that's the reason why tech is here. They're experts that will develop amazing products based on the knowledge in the market. And they can do that. So it's like for me, it's like company buying a CRM or ATS or chatbot, they do not need to do anything, I hope that there will be more solutions out there that will help companies implement competency based hiring into the hiring process.

 

David Turetsky: 23:13

So you're saying they don't necessarily need od people to administer it, or to ensure that their competency strategies and competency hierarchies and frameworks are appropriate because that technology should just bring that along.

 

Maya Huber: 23:27

Yeah, and Ta managers can handle that or, you know, implement that into inside their organization or CHROs. But, you know, out there in the market, it's not just in HR, there are specific solutions that companies or a, you know, a consultant in the industry hold, they will do that. Like with diversity, I think it's the same thing.

 

David Turetsky: 23:51

So So I guess what I'm asking is, then that's a data play, not just technology. So the technology has the data built in to have all those competency libraries and the taxonomies so that there's less for that administration of that technology in the company. And it basically is then plugging and playing into what should be a better recruiting process.

 

Maya Huber: 24:13

Exactly. And I believe that you know, they will hopefully if you ask me again about next year, there will be solutions out there using data points like we will have or our solution will have about competencies, offering feedback and you know, insight and in competency do not start only in recruiting or sourcing all routes, it's upskilling, reskilling and there are some engagement, promotion of course. So we will have new data points, new expertise, new tech.

 

David Turetsky: 24:47

But by the way, I want to touch on promotion for a second. Having been a practitioner for a very long time and having been a part of the HRIS team and the compensation team. One of the things that frustrates me about promotion is sometimes promotion is just to give people a different title and make them happy about what they do. That's not promotion. That's just patting them on the back and giving them another word and pissing me off because my job title database is now ruined. What I'm talking about in terms of promotion is you have a position that's open, just like in the world of recruiting, I now have to create a slate of candidates for it, I have to hire for it. And promotion is basically internal recruiting. And we don't treat it as such. I mean, I know there's some I'm being oversimplifying, but there are there are companies who get this right. But shouldn't we be doing exactly the same thing? As we're doing and opening up that requisition externally, to be able to try and find the best person and do the simulation and be able to judge them against those competencies for that next job for that promotion?

 

Maya Huber: 25:56

Absolutely. Not only that, why won't we engage our employees in the decision making of promotion, it will not be just oh there's a new title, a new salary, good job guy, Have a nice day, it will be listen, those are the new opportunities that those particular honorarium for now, maybe a year long path, what do you think? Where's your competency suitable for? Where do you see yourself? What do you like to do? Maybe people want to cross the bar to different position across the organization. I couldn't agree more.

 

David Turetsky: 26:31

Well, so that's what pay transparency and the new transparency that we're hopefully going to get with legislation saying to people that you need to post salary ranges on requisitions on job postings? I'm not talking externally, I'm saying that will force internal mobility, because people will see the external, hiring posting, and they're gonna say, why didn't I get put into that? Yeah, and they're going to force it internally. And if you don't, basically you're going to do is create a mutiny, people are gonna be like, Screw this, I'm going to leave, because you didn't offer me that really cool role that I am ready for, like you say, give people the opportunity of giving them career development, help inside the organization, give them the choices,

 

Maya Huber: 27:16

but there's something there that is interesting, I hear from people in this industry, that they're afraid or they're worried, I don't know, that when we will start dealing with competencies and be objective all the time. It will be tough for me as a manager to tell him you know what, David, this, this opportunity is not for you. But you will say hey, Maya, I have these competencies. Look, I'm ready for a job I'm right for this new opportunity inside the company. And what will they answer you that I don't like you that much? That you do not fit to my culture? See what I mean?

 

David Turetsky: 27:52

oh, yeah. But that's the reason why in the past, people have been pissed off about subjectivity in management.

 

Maya Huber: 27:57

I know, I know. But that's the other side of it, then we need to take it into consideration as well.

 

David Turetsky: 28:03

But then it becomes an objective process. I know an objective process with real data with real metrics around it.

 

Maya Huber: 28:12

This is where we should be but I guess that you know, this is a new getting new paradigm and even there's pros and cons. You know, I'm the biggest fan of that. But I hear those voices again and people people are afraid from changes this market was able you know, how long ago Leonardo DiCaprio not DiCaprio? Recap, you know, Leonardo da Vinci invented the

 

David Turetsky: 28:38

By the way, Leonardo DiCaprio is a modern day Leonardo da Vinci.

 

Maya Huber: 28:43

Maybe you reinvented the resume you do not know. But

 

David Turetsky: 28:46

He's a scientist as well as being an actor.

 

Maya Huber: 28:48

Anyway, now we have another offend in the crowd. But, yeah, resumes and application process were invented a really long, long time ago. And now on paper. And I want I have kids, and I wish that when they grew up, they will say, Oh, resume isn't the thing our parents send through fax? Are people still using that? This is why I get up in the morning. And I wish for this future for all of us, because that's where it should be more objective, more diverse, more open and flexible. And I also think there's the power the power should go back to the people to the job seekers once you're a job seeker once you're an employee. You know, most of us did both in our life cycle. And we all need to remember that once we hire people or manage people,

 

David Turetsky: 29:51

Empathy. Are you talking about empathy?

 

Maya Huber: 29:53

Oh, what is? Yeah, yeah, I must tell you a short story. I find one, you know, we are a small company. And we, of course focus in competency based hiring. And each and every time one of my managers for the first time he's hiring. He said, Okay, you know, he's publishing an ad, he said, send your resumes, I say, you cannot do that. And I did his conversation with my marketing guy. Last week said, so how will I find people? I said, based on competencies, and he's working in a compentencies based company, so this is tough.

 

David Turetsky: 30:32

Oh my, by the way, shoemakers children, for those of you don't know what shoemakers children are, think about people who do something, and how they really suck at what they do. It just happens. Companies that do HR stuff are the worst at HR. So yeah,

 

Maya Huber: 30:51

it was so funny, really. So you know, I guess this is a reflection of the market. And this is why I get up in the morning, and we have a lot of work to do.

 

David Turetsky: 30:59

We do. Maya, I look forward to coming back here, 2023 HR Tech, and you having a either 20 by 20 booth, or 10 by 20 booth and saying, This is how it's worked out for us. And this is what I see for 2024.

 

Maya Huber: 31:22

I will take that. Thank you so much.

 

David Turetsky: 31:25

Or as we say, next year in Tel Aviv.

 

Maya Huber: 31:29

That's better. We need to bring HR Tech to Tel Aviv.

 

David Turetsky: 31:32

Yeah, well, I'm sure we could do one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that would be cool. Thank you so much.

 

Maya Huber: 31:37

Thank you so much for this opportunity. It was absolutely joy.

 

David Turetsky: 31:41

It was fun for me too. Thank you very much. Take care and stay safe.

 

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