David Turetsky and Dwight Brown – Season 3 Recap

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• HR Data Labs
• HR Data Labs Season 4 Episode 1
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 24

• “What is amazing to me is the fact that we're moving from a mindset of HR being company driven to HR and companies being employee driven.”
• “I do think that even with a softening of the labor market, we're never going to see it flipped back to things not being employee driven. And we got to keep our eye on the ball of keeping things employee-driven.”

Announcer  0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs Podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, but count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky  0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs Podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. And with me today, my friend, Dwight Brown, co host of the HR Data Labs Podcast. Hey, Dwight, how you doing?

Dwight Brown  0:57

I'm good, David, how you doing?

David Turetsky  0:59

Very good. Today, we have a very special episode for you. Today, we're actually wrapping up season three. Can you believe it? Dwight, this is the 75th podcast.

Dwight Brown  1:11

Man, I cannot believe it. It is just crazy that we've made it this far.

David Turetsky  1:15

It is great. And I think a lot of our audience is saying the exact same thing.

Dwight Brown  1:18

Exactly. And our colleagues too

David Turetsky  1:22

Yeah, they're like, When are they going to stop with this crap already. But one of the fun things we're going to do today is trying to accomplish three different things. The first thing we're going to try and accomplish is give a little bit of a recap about what we learned and who we talked to. In season three, we had a lot of really great episodes. And of course, every time all the seasons, we've had great episodes, I think this might have been the strongest set of episodes we've had, though, with the strongest guestlist so far.

Dwight Brown  1:50

I would agree.

David Turetsky  1:51

And you are part of the reason why because you had gotten some really great guests for our for our season season three. The second thing is we're going to talk about some of the themes we're going to talk to in season four, and some of the things that we hope to accomplish in season four. And then we're going to do something really new for us. Because our seasons kind of last about six months, we're going to put on our Carnac hat and predict for those of you who remember who Carnac was, Johnny Carson from the tonight show, where he would try and predict things that are happening in the news. And he obviously he knew what he was talking about, because he wrote the cards that were in the envelopes. But we're going to talk about what we think is going to happen in the world of HR data, analytics and technology over the next six months. And so one of the things we'd like to do is then in Episode 100, which we're gonna have a very special episode. But we're gonna go back and open up that envelope and see how cardiac Dwight and cardiac David did and talk about what we learned as well as what we predict for the next time. So what we're going to do now is we're going to start off by talking about one fun thing now. No, we're not going to do the one fun thing. Oh. Well, if you want to, you can tell the world one fun thing about you that no one knows.

Dwight Brown  3:11

Oh, my God. I you know, of course I have to filter it.

David Turetsky  3:16

But yes, you do. Yes. Very much. PG 13.

Dwight Brown  3:21

Okay, so here we go. So a few people know about this people who have known me for a long time, but I used to work in college for three years I worked as a bouncer in a bar. Yeah, that was a that was one of my most interesting jobs ever, I have to say.

David Turetsky  3:39

And I'm glad I didn't have to run into you.

Dwight Brown  3:42

Yes, yes, you are.

David Turetsky  3:46

Yes, yes. For those of you who know me, I don't drink that much anymore. I try not to at least so I hopefully would not have run afoul of Mr. Brown. But that was a good one fun thing. One fun thing about me is I now have college payments coming up because my oldest is going to the School of Visual Arts in New York City. And I'm very proud of them. They're going to do a great job there. They're already great artists. But they will love that that living in New York City working in New York City and learning in New York City will be a phenomenal, wonderful experience for them.

Dwight Brown  4:20

What an experience, not great for you with admin, education payments, but you know, you'll love to see your kids have those opportunities.

David Turetsky  4:28

I'm so excited for them. One of the fun things I get to do for them is I'm hooking them up because the their school doesn't have a meal plan. I'm hooking them up at H&H bagels with a meal plan. Oh. So they have to walk walk to a H&H bagels.

Dwight Brown  4:45

I am so sick of bagels right now.

David Turetsky  4:48

Hey, listen, you know, that's what you got to eat smoothies too, h&h Bagels make smoothies.

Dwight Brown  4:55

That's okay, I survived off a bean burritos from Taco Bell and when I was in college.

David Turetsky  5:00

Or ramen? How many of us ate ramen? And oh, so

Dwight Brown  5:04

Oh yeah.

David Turetsky  5:05

So now let's talk about season three and some of the key lessons. And I think we can start by saying Season Three started off with a bang, because we had just attended HR tech 2021. And we both attended we well, we what we learned from it was that trying to run around HR tech, and be able to herd cats and do podcasting was fun in and of itself. Remember that.

Dwight Brown  5:44

Yeah, we learned we learned a lot about the sound challenges alone of doing that and how to how to record thank God, we've got a great engineer that can work his magic on what we gave him and Carl managed.

David Turetsky  6:02

Yes, shout out to Carl. And in the in the notes today, we'll give you Carl's email address and everything about Affogato media.

Dwight Brown  6:12

Yes.

David Turetsky  6:13

But to start, we start off with a bang with really focusing on a few different topics. One of them, which is how has the ATS world changed with technology. And we had spoken with Tim Sackett, Bennett Son, and Jack Copeman. And really kind of understood, where does test the technology gone, but also where has the ATS function gone inside of HR. Because what we've all experienced is various levels of either frustration or success with being able to find the right talent and utilize the right talent, and be able to get those from the from the wonderful indeed, commercial that needle in the haystack or being needle to get found. Right.

Dwight Brown  6:59

You know, the piece that that this really drove home for me was you can lay a lot of technology on top of a process. But if your back end processes don't change your technology, the value of it can be compromised. So it all depends what you do with it.

David Turetsky  7:19

Exactly. And I think we actually had that happen. That theme, that exact theme happened several times during our season, where we talked about how HR policies and practices have influenced or have been influenced by HR technology or have influenced HR technology. Have they really changed since the 70s? And 80s? Right, the 1970s 1980s?

Dwight Brown  7:43

I'm glad you clarified that.

David Turetsky  7:44

Well, I mean, it could have been the 1870s and 1880s.

Dwight Brown  7:47

Well I'm not sure there's been much change from that period, either.

David Turetsky  7:50

Well, no, you're right. Actually, there hasn't, mobile computers, I think didn't really exist in the 1800s. But, but then again, some HR practices still haven't changed from the 1800s either. But one that thankfully has is the focus on diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And we had several episodes over the season that I'm very proud of especially we start off with the Pam Jeffords, Susan Richards and Daniel White from Sapien Insights Group. That was a really fun episode. And that carried through to a lot of different conversations, whether it was Ray Goldberg's, you know, reenvisioning reconceptualizing benefits based on D&NI or we had some really wonderful conversations with Joseph, if he gave you where he was talking about the employee, the full employee lifecycle and looking at it from that lens of D&NI and our colleague, Lena Turner, and her experiences and her personal perspective on it. And I said, I wasn't gonna go through each one, Dwight, but, you know, let me get through the D&NI ones and then we can kind of go back to grouping them all together, like the Fred Wills episode, I think, was one of my favorites. And whereas I love all of my podcast children equally, Fred wills was a really great conversation. And we learned a lot from that one.

Dwight Brown  9:05

Yeah, they were, they were all great. And, you know, Fred, as we talked about the episode, Fred and I knew each other from from a past employer, small world, so it was, oh, it was and it was great to reconnect with them, and great to actually be able to have the level of conversation that we did, from the personal perspective and the level of detail as well. It's Oh, yeah, yeah. And in even, you know, Lena and and her personal experience that she shared. I love those episodes, because it really, you know, we talk about these things conceptually, so much of the time, so to be able to get down to that personal level, and you really get a look and feel for the entire DEI landscape was that that for me was a really special experience.

David Turetsky  9:54

It was it was and cap that off with a really great and fun experience with talking to Kathy Enderes on the DE&I analytics, right, yeah, aware, you know, brilliant person. And she came at it from a really fascinating perspective where we learned a lot about not only being able to get the data to measure, but then what are you measuring? And what impact does that have love that episode.

Dwight Brown  10:16

Yeah. And talking about what do you do with the data? And once you've got.

David Turetsky  10:20

Yeah, and so, you know, then we had a lot of other themes that kind of were pervasive through a lot of the season, one of which was being able to utilize the technology to really engage with employees, and be able to learn what do employees want, and whether it's setting up employee experience for the benefit of business and business outcomes, or whether it's being able to move HR technology in the right direction, and be able to evolve what the personnel action form used to be, or, you know, really focusing on, as I said, the business outcomes and being able to figure out how to change business outcomes by looking at measuring employee experience in UX, we had those conversations with Kevin Campbell, and Jen Johnson and a few other people, and they were a lot of fun.

Dwight Brown  11:13

And it that theme for me, we talked, you know, we talked about the the HR processes from the 1800s. And it's what is amazing to me, and this was really driven home by by each of the episodes was the fact that we're moving from a mindset of HR being company driven to HR and companies being employee driven, you know, used to be the company people viewed as the companies doing the employee a favor by employing them. And now we're moving into a mindset where the employee is doing the company favor by being employed there. And that really came through and in the episodes.

David Turetsky  11:57

And I think some of the dynamics we're seeing playing out right now in the market, where a lot of organizations are seeing movements to unionize whether it's baristas for Starbucks or other areas. And, yeah, that's employees feeling the power that was given to them, or that they've taken from companies because of the great resignation. And because of this change, from working in the office, to working at home, that empowerment of being able to work from home and feeling like you can still be productive. And then when organizations say no, we want you back in the office employees going, Wait a minute, you mean I don't have to wait for the meeting. I can get up, get get my kids out the door, and not have to freak out about whether or not they're sick or not, and who's going to watch them and whether there's a repairman coming or whatever. This is the life man, this is working for me. And totally then companies going oh, no, no COVID is over. Come back. We need You now, you know,

Dwight Brown  12:55

An employee saying yeah, thanks but no,

David Turetsky  12:58

Exactly. And in an environment where we have low unemployment, relatively low unemployment, and trying to find good talent at all levels of organizations, is now really hard. And we've heard lots of and we actually had some episodes where we're talking about being able to try and find good talent. Tim Freestone, the episode that will precede this one where we're talking about even finding good data talent, how do you how do you find those people? Right? It's impossible these days.

Dwight Brown  13:26

Yeah, exactly.

David Turetsky  13:27

We actually had another conversation with Greg Miller about being able to grow talent from people who you would have alternatively laid off instead, and being able to grow their skills and be able to change what they do instead of affecting them by laying them off.

Dwight Brown  13:44

Yeah, exactly. The Win Win that's created with... you know, the the employees obviously benefit that the company has benefited as well. You really retool your workforce, you've you've got lower costs of laying people off, you know, all those kinds of things. So it's fascinating.

David Turetsky  14:01

And I think one of the other things that we talked about in the series in this season was the new social responsibilities, like we mentioned, with the Greg Miller episode of being socially responsible, when you're automating, and being able to grow people inside who can change what they do, and retrain, and reskill instead of laying them off, but we also had conversations as well with ESG and talking about the environmental social governance in today's organizations, because, frankly, we can't have business as usual anymore. World has changed, right? climates change, and the world is not the same.

Dwight Brown  14:40

Yeah. And look at our look at our current environment where there's so much more corporate policy drive where I mean, look at what we're seeing in Ukraine and Russia where McDonald's just pulled out of Russia as as a statement and KFC and all the other organizations and you look internally within United States with what happened in Florida with Disney and the you know, so all and what came out for me in the podcast that we have is that organizations are realizing that they have to be employee driven, but not only employee driven, they have to live out the values that the employees care about. So those ESGs really helped to drive things, not only to company level, but I mean, look at it. It's driving court world politics right now. So absolutely.

David Turetsky  15:34

And I think one of the other season themes that we had was HR technology, and its growth and its change. And whether we're talking about AI, and the Holger Mueller conversation, or we're talking about the ability for collaboration, Adriana, the episode that I think that was episode 23, and trying to take advantage of or have you and your network be able to take advantage of growth by utilizing your network. But we had we had others where, you know, we talked to Larry Donovan about mid market and what the special needs of the mid market are for from HR technology. So there was a lot of growth, and there was a lot of talk about changing the HR technology landscape in season three.

Dwight Brown  16:15

It was fascinating looking at it from multiple angles like that, and and really gives you a good perspective on just how influential HR tech and analytics can be within an organization. Or the downfalls if you don't have good HR tech and what else to help drive your organization.

David Turetsky  16:33

Exactly. And if I hadn't mentioned that before, let me mention my friend, my business friend, Steve Brink, and the ability to customize pay packages and using that employee, as I think we talked about before that employee experience to ask employees what they want to get paid to me that kind of drives home, where we're headed. And so instead of talking more about that, and I think we've covered off on season three, let's talk about some of the themes that we are going to take on in season four.

Dwight Brown  17:06

This is exciting to me.

David Turetsky  17:07

Yeah, me too.

Announcer  17:09

Like what you hear so far, make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by salary.com. Now back to the show.

David Turetsky  17:21

So to me season four, I'm hoping this is what I hoped for season four, that we talk about more about people analytics and its evolution to talent intelligence. And for those who haven't heard me speak, I'm speaking at the World at Work conference in May of 2022 on talent intelligence, and it's evolution from people analytics, we're going to spend a lot more time as well, talking about the evolution of diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging, and the evolution of pay equity, inside of DEI&B. And what it all means, what does the practice of DEI&B mean in the context of how businesses get run, and the world of compensation and pay equity. We're also going to talk about the evolution of work, a lot of things happened in 2020, in the first six months of 2022, that really kind of shone a light on how work will evolve or how it's changed already from the pandemic. And I think we're going to learn a lot, especially at HR tech about how HR technologies are going to grow and meet to be able to meet that challenge. My hope is at least that we learn from World at Work, SHRM and HR Tech about what's coming in what will be new. And so I'm looking forward to that.

Dwight Brown  18:43

Yeah, I mean, the pace of change is gonna be really rapid. So it will be interesting to see what we see when we get there.

David Turetsky  18:50

And when we get there, we will be confirming whether or not

Exactly! Hey, world, we are the critics of this. So

Yes, that is true. We're also gonna be talking about the evolution of compensation. We've gone through lots of evolution in the world of comp, especially over the last year, last three years. It's crazy change. And so I think in this season, we're going to have lots of conversations about what and how is the world of comp going to do to overcome some of those changes that are happening in the world of work, as well as what's happening in the world of automation? And how does competition change based on that? So I'm looking forward to that specifically.

Dwight Brown  19:11

Yeah, me too.

David Turetsky  19:28

And then the last piece that I hope we get to it is, and I know we're going to because we're going to be attending there is a new HR Tech series, HR Technology is from September 13 through 15th. And we're really looking forward to attendance and we're looking to, you know, talk to some new friends, but we're also going to probably try and get most of our old friends to join us for conversations. And if you remember what happen last time in season three, we gave guests the choice of whether or not they wanted to talk about HR Technology past, present and future. I think it was compensation past, present and future, people analytics past, present and future. And so we're going to try and do the same thing again and do a compare and contrast 2021 to 2022, and see what changed.

Dwight Brown  20:22

We'll give them the choice of what they want to speak to. But, you know, we may not give them a choice, we'll just tell them what they're going to what I used to be a bouncer, so I can I can help force on you to talk or whatever.

David Turetsky  20:33

Definitely, your physical presence will be imposing.

Dwight Brown  20:37

Say, you must answer this question.

Yeah, exactly.

David Turetsky  20:41

Dum Dum.

Dwight Brown  20:42

And then they'll then they'll look at me and say, You're not in college anymore. You don't intimidate me.

David Turetsky  20:49

You're not in college anymore. And so I think what we're going to try and get out of season four, other than to try and do 25 More episodes is to really kind of take the next step is, you know, to see the evolutions of where work takes the world of analytics and data and HR technology. And see what what what is the result on employees and businesses and shareholders and try and give an opportunity for whether they're CHROs, CEOs, industry analyst practitioners, to give their perspective on it, and to help us understand what are they doing? How are they changing, to be able to meet those changing needs?

So the last topic that we wanted to try and cover in this episode is our predictions for the next six months. So hopefully, by the time we get to Episode 100, we'll be able to look back on these predictions and say, Were we right? Or were we wrong? And I'm going to kick it over to you, Dwight. Dwight, what are your predictions for the world of HR data analytics and technology? Over the next six months?

Dwight Brown  22:06

Oh, wow. Well, I'm, I'm actually going to talk at a at a more global level in this one, and I'm going to play Jay Powell here. So the from David's just laughing at me, the you know, I think of the push and pull that we're seeing right now in the labor market. And, and the the economic markets, we've we've got record inflation, and the Fed is is trying to control it, we're seeing things in the labor market in terms of difficulty in getting the employees sourcing employees, we're seeing wage compression, especially toward the bottom end of the scale. I you know, I think what what we're going to see is a softening in the labor market. But my hope is that, with some of the softening, you know, as unemployment starts to tick back up a little bit that companies don't take their eye off the ball and how to integrate and utilize technology for HR. I mean, I, I do think that even with a softening of the labor market, we're never gonna see it flip back to things not being employee driven. And we got to keep our eye on the ball of keeping things employee driven, we've got to make employees feel that they that they have the data at their fingertips that they need, and that they have the ability to engage with technology to to better engage with their employers. And on the flip side of that, that employers are utilizing that technology to better engage with with the employees. So my prediction is that we'll see a little bit of an uptick in unemployment, I don't think it's going to be huge, but there's the inflationary pressures really start to peak, I think companies are going to be forced to make tough decisions to scale back on on employees, and we're already seeing a little bit of it. But I think in six months, you can gauge my prediction based on what the unemployment rate is, and we'll see how technology follows with that.

David Turetsky  24:17

Good one. So I'm going to go in a similar direction. But I'm going to go a couple steps further, I'm going to say that because of inflationary pressures, the government is going to be forced to start putting together some incentives that enable people to look beyond fossil fuel. We're not going to be able to influence the prices of gas and diesel down, which are going to have knock on effects to products in the market. Like we've already seen the rise in eggs. Of course, that came from the great poultry disease of 2022.

Dwight Brown  24:54

Avian Flu, I think,

David Turetsky  24:55

Yep, yeah, where they had to kill 27 million chickens but I think price says are going to rise on some good because of gas and diesel prices going through the roof. And the that pressure is going to put pressure on the government to do things that they've kind of been reticent to do before, which is to start migrating toward less fossil fuel. That may sound like a ho hum prediction. But that has knock on effects to the rest of the market. To your point, what does it do in terms of the world of HR and technology? I think what's going to happen is people are going to start to look to HR technology to start leading, and figuring out what can we do smarter, better, because there are going to be pressures, cost pressures being put on organizations. And so they're going to tighten their belts again. And they're going to go into cost cutting mode. And we're going to start to see things and this is over the next six months, we're not talking about a year or two down the line. Before we get to that election cycle, things have to get better. Yeah, no party wants to be the party of a recession during an election cycle. So I think that the Fed to your point, the Fed will keep managing that balance between inflation and unemployment and interest rates so that it doesn't affect the economy drastically in cause recession. Of course, it's going to come but it's not going to be a big one, it will be a small one be a smaller recession. Right. Anyways, I think where this comes to HR technology is we're going to I think this is your point, we're going to be asking HR technology to do more, and to give us more insight as to what's happening in the people. And the especially the key resources, the knowledge workers and to try and manage compensation expense much more carefully than we have been in the past. My hope is also that there is a new push on pay equity. And that every compensation decision that organizations get looked at with a finer lens on pay equity. At the same time, we're looking at whether it's a promotional increase, or whether it's a lateral, whether it's a merit increase, or a bonus being given that at every time that decision gets made, that we're smarter, and that we're being more focused on what does that do to pay equity? Again, that's probably going to take longer than six months. But that would be nice.

Dwight Brown  27:20

Right? Yeah. And I agree with you completely. Yeah, exactly. Our, our hope and our prayer,

David Turetsky  27:27

Right? Well, we have to wrap that up with a bow. We're gonna put Do not open. And then six months from now, we're going to open back up again, and see where either of us close to where we thought we would be. Six months was what, November 2022? November 18 2022.

Dwight Brown  27:49

Yeah.

David Turetsky  27:58

So Dwight, it was a good 75th podcast. Thank you very much.

Dwight Brown  28:03

Thank you. I, you know, so I'll just I think I've said this before, but I never pictured myself to ever be podcasting. And I could not ask for a better person to podcast with then you.

David Turetsky  28:20

Oh, thank you very much. You're a great partner. And you've been carrying a lot of water on this. And you've been managing the podcast quite well over the last 50 plus episodes. And I thank God, I met you and thank God that you're part of the podcast. And you know, you're, you're a great asset to the company and to me, and I appreciate you being my friend.

Dwight Brown  28:40

Thank you. I appreciate that. I love it. And I look forward to another season of it.

David Turetsky  28:45

Yes. Well, at least another 25 of them. Yeah. We're on the hook. We gotta get to 100. That's right. Even if we bore the crap out of every single listener that we've gotten to the stage, we love you, and we hope we don't bore you. Oh, yeah.

Dwight Brown  29:01

Come hell or high water? We're getting high on episode number. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

David Turetsky  29:04

Well, even if we have to just, you know, record one topic, and we're going to do the 100. No, I'm kidding. But what we really would love to do is if you guys want to get engaged with us, send us an email, send us a text send us, you know, flowers. Tell us what you'd like to talk about. One of the beautiful things about the HR Data Labs Podcast is, we've heard from a lot of people. And a lot of people have sent their PR organizations to contact us. And hey, that's cool. But if you want to talk to us, just send us an email, Dwight and my email addresses will both be on this podcast. So let us know your thoughts, what topics you'd like us to cover things that you want to hear about, guests you want to hear from. We're going to work really hard this year to get some hard hitting guests to be able to bring some different opinions that you've heard before. But still, we're going to be fun. We're going to ask them one fun thing. And we're going to make you laugh, or try at least.

Dwight Brown  29:55

And I would I would add one thing to that list too. If you want to be guest on the show, if you feel like you've got a topic that you're passionate about that would be great to hear, please let us know what we're the progression that we've gone through more and more is that we have a lot more people reaching out to us saying, Hey, this is this is what I work with. I'd love to be a guest on the show. And so more and more we're we're tapping into all of you as our network of guests.

David Turetsky  30:23

Absolutely. And the funniest thing, Dwight is the people who don't think they have anything to say turn out they have the probably the best podcasts.

Dwight Brown  30:31

Exactly, that! That's how we know when it's going to be a great podcast.

David Turetsky  30:35

Yes. So thank you, Dwight.

Dwight Brown  30:38

Thank you, David.

David Turetsky  30:40

And thank all of you. Take care and stay safe.

Announcer  30:44

That was the HR Data Labs Podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.