Susan Hunt Stevens – Environmental, Social & Governance in Today’s Organizations

Connect with Susan:

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Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• WeSpire
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 20
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 18

• “I'm a big believer that companies respond to investors, and investors care extraordinarily now about ESG. The largest private and public equity funds in the world, from Blackstone to BlackRock, have told portfolio companies that they need to have very strong ESG strategies and present really good ESG data for them to evaluate their investments.”
• “I think you can do things to dramatically improve employee engagement and these [mental health and wellbeing, and inclusive culture] programs are an absolute tool in your toolbox for creating an environment that's the best place to work . . . [and that helps employees] feel included and belong and therefore they're higher performing.”

Announcer  0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, but count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky  0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I am your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find you the most fascinating people to discuss the world of HR data, analytics and technology, people inside and outside the world of HR. Today we have with us Susan Hunt Stevens, who is the founder and CEO of WeSpire. Hello, Susan, how are you?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  1:05

Good. How are you guys?

 

David Turetsky  1:07

Very good. And as always, we have our trusted cohost and friend from salary.com, Dwight Brown. Hey, Dwight.

 

Dwight Brown  1:15

Hello, David. Hello, Susan. Good to have you here.

 

David Turetsky  1:18

So Susan, why don't you give us a little bit about your background and who WeSpire is?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  1:24

Sure. So I have a digital media and technology background for 20 plus years, much of that on the digital division of the New York Times. And so what does that have to do with HR data and HR tech, I'm sure you're wondering. About 10 years ago, a little more, I founded a company with a belief that you could use the best of interactive technology to close the gap between people who say they want to do something, to be healthier, sustainable and more inclusive, and people who actually do it. And that's about a 60 percentage point intent to action gap. And what we ended up finding is that it really worked with individuals, but that companies were even more excited about what we could do. And so we started running enterprise programs focused first and foremost on sustainability. And then that's expanded over the last four years to other aspects of what is now being called ESG, or environment, social and governance programs in the enterprise. Some of the things you might be more familiar with, that are, that your company might have that falls under the ESG umbrella would be things like volunteering and giving programs, a lot going on right now, for example, in that area to support Ukraine, well-being and that might be fitness and health challenges, mental health, sleep, financial well-being programs, things like that. And then last but certainly not least inclusive culture and things related to employee resource groups, or business resource groups, as well as the behavioral aspects of what drives psychological safety, equity and inclusion in a workplace.

 

David Turetsky  3:00

Great, Susan, now we know much more about you. So we ask every one of our guests, though, something that no one knows about you?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  3:08

Well, I love this question. And what I can tell you is that none of your listeners listening to this little intro would have any idea that on Saturday mornings, I get up and go learn old Irish step dances, that have been passed down for hundreds of years by dance masters, most notably Dan Fury. And that once a month, I get online with probably 60 people from around the world to go through these songs as part of passing down, not just the, you know, the songs themselves, but the steps that go with the songs and it's an incredible community. It's a lot of fun. It's a really good workout.

 

David Turetsky  3:43

I'm sure it is. And I'm glad you're doing it. I wish I could. But...

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  3:50

It's super fun and not that hard to learn.

 

David Turetsky  3:53

No, no, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm just not coordinated. I don't have two left feet. I actually have no feet when it comes to dancing, which I was highlighted for this week when I went dancing in Puerto Rico and realized that my girlfriend could not teach me how to dance at all after 15 or 20 minutes stepping on her foot. So....

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  4:15

We all have those things we're terrible at.

 

Dwight Brown  4:21

There's a reason David's not a dancer.

 

David Turetsky  4:23

That is correct. That is the reason I'm not a dancer.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  4:27

The reason I'm not a musician.

 

David Turetsky  4:28

Well now you're a podcaster, well you were probably a podcaster before, but now you're a podcaster.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  4:32

I am, I actually, little known fact, I actually interned for National Public Radio two summers in college. So I was telling Dwight that he has an awesome radio voice. I did not have an awesome radio voice. And so going into technology has been a much better career path.

 

David Turetsky  4:49

Well, my mom told me for a long time I had a great face for radio. So... Thanks, Mom. People on this podcast have heard me say that 1000 times so I apologize for the 1000 and 1st time. So you had mentioned ESG. And we're going to talk a little bit more, we're actually going to talk the whole time today about environmental and social governance. And its impact to the organization and how HR can utilize ESG in everything it does to not only connect with employees, but also to make their experience richer, and to build that bond that as we know, in the year of 2022, it's really critical to build as many very critical bonds as you can with employees to keep them excited, healthy, and engaged.

 

So that brings up our first question, which is, what are companies doing around ESG? And why is it important today?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  5:52

So companies have been doing things that fall under the ESG umbrella for a long time, I think what's dramatically changed, even in the last two to three years, is that it's moved from largely being voluntary, and being something that some companies did and some companies didn't. And that, you know, might have been more a bastion of brands like Ben and Jerry's, and Patagonia and Seventh Generation, and now every company is feeling the importance of this for a number of reasons. First and foremost, I'm a big believer that companies respond to investors and investors care extraordinarily now about ESG, the largest private equity funds in the world that you know, and public equity funds, with, from Blackstone to Blackrock have told portfolio companies that they need to have very strong ESG strategies and present really good ESG data for them to evaluate their investments. A shocking statistic I heard the other day is now one out of every $4 on Wall Street is being invested with an ESG lens or various criteria and that has changed dramatically in the last six years. And the reason for that is that there's just been a lot of data that's come out of, whether it's Harvard, or MIT or Stanford, or places that look at those companies that do embrace ESG and realize those companies are performing better than others. Because ESG is a framework that helps you manage risk. It helps you drive innovation, it helps you connect with your stakeholders that go kind of beyond your shareholders, and that it's a proxy essentially, for really, really good governance and management. And so companies with good ESG programs outperform those that don't and that's one of the things that's catalyzing the level of investor interest. But the second is the crises, you know, we are dealing with, whether it's the climate crisis, whether it's racial justice and equity, whether it is mental health and well-being, workplaces are on the front lines of some big, huge social and environmental problems. That's a big opportunity for companies and those that are embracing solving those problems are seeing growth and innovation. And so that is another reason that's driving ESG, particularly in the area of sustainability. But it's also, you know, something where people didn't think about their raw materials, perhaps not being able to be obtained at all because of weather and climate change, you know, and so they didn't plan for that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and they have to do now.

 

David Turetsky  8:28

Well, I think one of the, or couple of the examples, of where it probably did help organizations, or it probably is now pushing organizations, is during the pandemic, not being able to find the goods and services that you were traditionally looking for, because they weren't there and being able to find them through non traditional sources. And a lot of those non traditional sources had sustainability, you know, draped across them, right, where people were using sustainable goods. But we always thought that there were premiums to them, or we thought that there were there may actually had been premiums previously, but as the normal goods were running out of stock or non existent, they were turning to those sustainable goods and saying, well, at least they're there. And the markup on the sustainable good isn't anywhere near what the lack of product is. And then also the Ukraine and Russia issue or war, where now we're talking about what are we going to do about the lack of oil coming from that, well, a small percentage of oil that's not coming from Russia, we're gonna, what are we going to do about it? We haven't necessarily embraced yet the sustainable piece of this. We're still going, "Oh, we're gonna find oil somewhere else". Which is a little disappointing. But yes, it is, tt is now thrusting people to look for suppliers that are more sustainable, or at least the investment in those?

 

Absolutely! The meme I saw the other day was the price of wind power has changed zero in the last four weeks. And so if you're powering off of renewable sources, and you, you know, had locked into a purchase power agreement, your financials are just going to be better than somebody who had not done that.

 

Right. And we were, I did a presentation this week where I showed a graph on the CPI and the CPI on gasoline had a 40% year over year increase, the percentage increase in gas, 40% increase from February of last year. It's crazy. And we're all feeling it, and it's now going to affect the entire supply chain.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  10:26

It will, and those who have adopted renewable strategies will be more insulated than others, none of us have been insulated and none of us have embraced, you know, things at the level that not only we should, given that, you know, estimates are we have about eight years left to cut emissions in half, if we don't want to see catastrophic climate temperature increases. But because of this, I mean, you know, the term that Tom Friedman uses is petro dictatorships, you know, there are a lot of places that are really propped up by fossil fuels. And one of the huge benefits of transitioning to a renewable energy economy is that those folks lose some of their power in their leverage. And I think we're seeing that that's not a bad thing right now, given other grand plans that you know, those, or countries have, or at least their leaders have?

 

David Turetsky  11:22

Absolutely. But if we take it back down to the world of human resources, and how that can affect or how a good ESG strategy can affect HR...

 

Announcer  11:32

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David Turetsky  11:44

Why don't we transition to what are the things that companies are doing to start building ESG thought processes into or continue those thought processes into the way in which they're creating or trying to create better experiences for their employees?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  11:58

Absolutely. So the first thing most companies are doing is what they call a materiality assessment. And what they're looking at in terms of that assessment, is what topics in the realm of environment, social and governance are material to the company. And then the next layer below that is, what topics are not only material to the company, but are highly, can be highly influenced by employees, or that employees are extremely passionate about, because that top box of employee passion and materiality represents huge opportunity for getting employees involved, getting them engaged. And what companies are now learning is that that engagement in those activities is having a big impact on their likelihood to recommend the company, their likelihood to stay at the company, and their performance. And so, you know, that's first. Second is there are things employees are passionate about that isn't that material. And that has been the land of frustration for many leaders of ESG. But one of the things that we talk about a lot with leaders is that you can be doing all the right things in sustainability. But if your employees still see waste in the cafeteria, or your employees still feel like the packaging that you have on your products, is this, you know, a terrible unrecyclable plastic, they don't care that you're doing all these other things, to hit your ESG targets. This is what they're seeing. This is what says whether you're authentic and consistent, and employees are increasingly calling employers out who are not authentic and consistent. And I think, you know, I laugh with my, some of my sustainability leader friends who gets so frustrated about the emphasis on recycling, for example, when they know that the real climate emissions might be in how they source their raw materials, or how the raw, you know, the product is used in scope three. But if those cups are just lying everywhere, those plastic bottles are just lying everywhere, it does feel like you don't care. So I think that's the other thing companies have to really do is recognize that an employee walks in and looks around holistically, they're not compartmentalizing, and they don't generally understand materiality. And that, you know, this is only this percentage of our missions. This thing over here is this much so we're going to focus here so educating employees around that and helping them understand you know, what really matters in ESG is a huge opportunity. And then once you do, getting ideas and innovation and involvement and engagement is actually very transformative for culture and what's awesome to see is when you not only when you do that to get the HR outcome benefit, we've even seen research that shows that ultimately hits costumer loyalty and revenue...

 

David Turetsky  15:01

Of course....

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  15:01

That it is an incredible chain.

 

David Turetsky  15:04

Of course...

 

Dwight Brown  15:04

The interesting part and what I'm hearing from you as being a culture shift, you know, I think of past times when I've been in leadership positions and having the employees come up and say, we need to do this as a company. And the expectation at that point was that it was going to be a top down, whereas the culture shift that seems to be taking place is more of an employee driven. The the employers are there as enablers, and they enable those pieces, but getting that engagement, that direct engagement and giving them that voice and ability to take action. I think there really helps with that piece, too.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  15:45

Absolutely. And I think the more companies can set goals, you know, ScienceBase, targets 2030, you know, broad UNSDG goals, things like that, that gives the framework for action, you know, we've set these goals, we've set these targets, this is what we want to accomplish. And what that does is it helps to harness that energy towards the things that ultimately matter, because that energy is there. I think employees just generally don't know what to do, exactly, or necessarily how to get it done. And so there's that grassroots energy that you do have to provide on ramps for that engagement and clarity around what you're hoping to accomplish as a result of that engagement.

 

Dwight Brown  16:28

Yeah...

 

David Turetsky  16:29

I wonder if there's also a reticence given the fact that some of the things they might be suggesting might be too expensive, and might cause margin burn, or might also be things that will erode profitability, and therefore, maybe not as popular with executives, even though they may have that ESG impact, they may not have a good impact on profitability, especially near term.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  16:52

That certainly used to be the general belief, these are the right things to do, but they're not necessarily good for business, you know, they're going to cost us more, it's going to take more time, it's going to slow things down. The reality is the data shows, it's exactly the opposite, that these initiatives in the aggregate, and you know, and embracing these things in the aggregate, are incredibly good for business along a number of fronts. You know, Walmart really was one of the first to demonstrate, you know, the billions of dollars of savings that they were able to generate by looking at their world through a sustainability lens. You know, and then as you get people involved in mental health and well-being programs, inclusive culture programs, you begin to realize these are the things that kind of go after, I would call it the the last bastion of huge business improvement opportunity, which is that we have kind of accepted as business leaders, this disengagement level that it's human beings, it's normal, it's work, you know, and all of that. And sure, there's some shining examples of some individual charismatic leaders who've been able to, you know, turn the tide, but that's not what most people can do. That's not going to stand for much longer, because I think you can do things to dramatically improve employee engagement and these programs these kinds of programs are an absolute tool in your toolbox for creating an environment, that's the best place to work that people want to be at that they're healthy when they are there, that they feel included and belong and therefore they're higher performing. And and I think we, we shouldn't accept 40-50% disengagement anymore. It's fixable.

 

David Turetsky  18:42

We can't I mean, with the great resignation, with a great disengagement, whatever you're going to call it, and with remote working, we can't have people disengaged, disengaged people means lack of productivity. And it means the companies could just completely shut down or you'll start getting massive layoffs or other things and so, disengagement now is almost like a death knell. It can't happen, or it causes, it causes two things, it'll cause no more remote working, which employees overwhelmingly want. And employers.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  19:16

There's a vicious cycle right there.

 

David Turetsky  19:17

Yeah, right, it is. But also disengagement comes from and we we've talked about this a lot in the world of compensation. You don't lose people because they're not paid right. You lose people because they hate their managers. And the straw that breaks the camel's back is pay. They say, "Oh, well, there's a job over here, that'll pay me more and I don't have to deal with this manager anymore". So I wonder to what extend it, where it's ESG creates that environment that people rally around and they can put other things out of their minds. They get the engagement back in and therefore it leads them to, it leads the company to better outcomes and less turnover.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  19:56

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, the manager being blamed for most disengagement, I actually think takes companies off the hook too much, puts too much of the problem at the manager employee relationship, I'm not saying that's not a key driver, it absolutely is, but I, you know, we work with cultures where people are leaving who have incredible managers, because the company has not decided that they're going to get out of a business that these employees feel like is destroying the planet. You know, it could be the best manager in the world. But if you're at a company that's making toxic products...

 

David Turetsky  20:38

Oh, of course...

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  20:38

You know, and so I think this, I think that's where ESG and reputation and, you know, future and all those things come to become a very, very important part of establishing a company, even those that may be in challenging industries, because there are challenging industries, if you are embracing very, very holistically the principles around ESG, you are now thinking differently about your future. And you can just look at companies, for example, in the fossil fuel industries, and some are known for being really out there and thinking about the future, and you know, that we're an energy company, and we're really changing that, and they're still attracting the best and the brightest and have and, you know, to the extent they have a good manager, and pay is you know, at market or things like that. Those that aren't, are really struggling, because that that's that's a more macro impact that ESG ties into, and people want to work at a company that is a force for good in this world. And if you believe that there was a stat that blew me away in some annual research that we do every year, and that is that if an employee strongly believes that their company is making a strong impact in this world positive impact in this world, they're only looking for jobs, only 7% are open to leaving a company. If that drops to kind of "I feel medium about that", 53% are looking for work.

 

Dwight Brown  21:47

Yeah.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  21:51

The dramatic difference between strongly promising impact and sort of neutral impact.

 

Dwight Brown 22:17

Very much an exponential equation that goes to that and not surprising, right? It is not surprising at all.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  22:27

And I think young people in particular, you know, is there is a generational difference. And, you know, I think the fascinating transition that's happening is the generation that's leaving the workforce right now, and behind some of the biggest numbers in the great resignation are the boomers, and the boomers did not have the same values around ESG in the workplace as other generations. And it just gets stronger and stronger as you go. And as you get to, you know, Gen Y and Gen Z, they won't even interview with your company, if they think that you are in some way, shape, or form not a force for good in this world. That's the lens they look at you through, even decide to talk to you, you know, for work. And so if you are not embracing sort of these aspects, and demonstrating them very well externally for how people evaluate on your social platforms, on your website, in the conversations with your employees, when that HR team goes out to the colleges to do recruiting, they're not even walking into an interview and those that are what's the first thing they ask, well, what are you guys doing around sustainability? What are you doing around diversity? You know, what they, that's top of mind.

 

David Turetsky  23:44

I think regulation SK also put that out there that in the ability to report on material issues, whether it's material issues in HR or beyond, I think what, what we've found is, is that people are now also doing the research and looking at the company and looking at what they're telling their investors and saying, you know, Apple, "Hey, you said you were going to be more equity focused, you are going to be more equity in terms of your sourcing of goods, and you're going to be more equitable in terms of your hiring practices and your pay practice and all that stuff. What are you doing about it? You know, what are youdoing?" And then you know, I think we all know about what happened with Google. And you know, with what one manager, one person said about something that had to do with ESG. And then it kind of threw everything into a tailspin for them for a while. So I think that there are, there's public ways for people to find information and the transparency around those things are better than they ever had been before. And to your point, generationally, there are groups that support or that are more comfortable with those things. And then there are like my dad, if he were still alive, he wouldn't know how to get that. And he also drove a 1954 Buick Century that's still sitting in my garage, which was a gas guzzler, right which, at idle, you know, the planet would go, "cough". So, you know, but but those things weren't as important to them. And so you know, we have a better lens, we have a better, we're better consumers, hopefully of the planet than they were.

 

Dwight Brown  25:14

We have a generation that's, that's coming in, that expects us to put our money where our mouth is, we've also got the crowdsourcing generation. So if they don't like it, it's gonna get out there. And, you know....

 

And they're voting with their feet.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  25:18

Yeah, they're voting with their feet. And they have, and we all have access to information that is unparalleled in history, in terms of what companies are doing. And that transparency, is forcing a lot of companies to have to come to grips with some pretty unpleasant facts about their supply chain, or their way they treated their people, or, you know, their factory conditions or things like that. It's not a secret anymore. It's not hidden behind that veil of secrecy that used to, you know, the corporate veil doesn't exist. And, and it's too easy to spread. And it's too, you know, and, and it is, ire provoking when you see, you know, a company dumping chemicals into water streams, or, you know, the consequences of oil spills, and the visual nature now of media certainly makes the the impact of the abuses even more, you know, visceral, I think. And so it provokes a level of employee activism that we haven't seen in the past.

 

David Turetsky  26:46

And let me transition then to another question that I'm pretty sure a lot of people are wondering, which is, how do we measure ESG in an organization, especially when it comes to employees and how employees feel about those ESG initiatives? And what are being done about them? How they're interacting with them? Is it about engagement? What is, what is the measurement?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  27:10

Yeah, so I think the, there is not yet an ESG engagement index. And we certainly think there should be so that you could evaluate and benchmark on a consistent basis across companies, but what you can look at are some of the metrics that underlie that various components. So for example, in the area of diversity, equity and inclusion, you can look at a company's diversity statistics, increasingly, those are going to be public and probably regulated and mandated at pretty soon, you can look at you know, if they're reporting pay equity, and also executive to frontline worker differences, you know, different companies have things around that. But the metric I love and which every company was measuring and working on improving is psychological safety. It's a one way seven question assessment. And it's a way to really look at whether any employee in a workforce feels like they can bring their whole self to work, they can make a mistake with, you know, without fear, they can take a risk, you know, and there's been incredible research showing that those companies with the highest levels of psychological safety are the highest performing companies. And we've done work that really shows that you can do everything right, from a pay equity standpoint, from a diversity hiring standpoint. But if you don't have equivalent levels of psychological safety between men and women or underrepresented employees and us, then then you are going to have challenges with having a representative workforce at all levels. And that really is something that's that can move the needle. So that's a big metric in the area of inclusion, and sustainability. You know, scope three emissions touch on the employee, it looks at what are the employee emissions related to commuting transportation? I think the big thing I know, a client called it this tsunami that we're about to hit is with a hybrid workforce. Does the company have to start looking at the employee home footprint, if they've got 100%, renewable strategy, if they've got a net zero or carbon neutrality strategy, but everybody's working from home three days a week? Do they need to know what that is? And count that offset that things like that? And so that's a big question. And then obviously, in the area, social impact, it's not just how many hours you're giving to the community, how many dollars are being catalyzed to the community through your efforts, but what's what is the outcomes? What are the impact of that, those efforts? One of the clients we worked with, you know, their initiative was really about delivering self esteem education to middle school girls, you know, and so how many lives were influenced by that programming?

 

David Turetsky  29:50

I think one of the things that you're kind of pointing to is that we have a ton of opportunity to not only recognize what we have been ignoring over decades, for history by the way, it's okay to be sad, it's okay to be a human, it's okay to bring your your self to work, we have good days, we have bad days, and the ability for us to have a shitty day, pardon my French, and still work where you work, it's something that a lot of us kind of worry about, especially in the tenuous nature of the employee employer relationship these days. And the ability for organizations to recognize that they're employing humans, not AI bots, it's a, it's important. We had Adriana DiNenno, from Infor, who talked to us about an employee resource group where it was about it was okay to not be okay. I think that was the name of it wasn't it Dwight?

 

Dwight Brown  30:45

Yeah.

 

David Turetsky  30:46

But she talked about, you know, mental health in the workplace and that, you know, it's okay to be, it's okay to have a bad day. And it's okay to have mental illness as part of who you are, and still be a productive member of the organization and society.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  31:02

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that really exacerbates the need for this and the importance of this is the shift away from humans as part of an industrial revolution process, to people's knowledge and ideas and brains being the major output of work. And that, as a result, if that brain isn't feeling good, then the work is gonna really, really suffer. But when we really were cogs in the industrial machine, you know, I'm not saying that wasn't important, but it wasn't ultimately why you were there, to some extent, you were there to be almost machine like, now, you know, if you lead any organization that has researchers and scientists, or engineers, or designers, or salespeople, or, you know, a lot of us do, you know, how those folks are feeling and thinking and believing is ultimately how and why you are successful. And if folks aren't feeling engaged, empowered, mentally healthy, included, you know, connected to the community that, you know, we're gonna have a planet 10 years from now, you're not getting their best performance.

 

David Turetsky  32:19

Right, and that you don't have to walk outside and get a sunburn, you know, in the middle of January in Massachusetts.

 

So Susan, we've talked about a lot of really cool topics around ESG, which for those of you who have not been following at home, is talking about environmental, social governance, and how it impacts the business, especially around HR. And we talked about examples of ESG in an organization and also how to measure it, Susan, anything else that you wanted to add that we haven't already talked about?

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  32:59

I just would encourage every listener, if they're in a leadership role to dig deep into your ESG strategy and engage your employees, it'll be transformative to your culture. But if you're an employee, and you don't see your company doing things around ESG, hand raise, most leaders of ESG, I know started out as passionate individual contributors and built the function inside their organizations. And there's still a huge need to do that. There just aren't enough folks who know this world and have led in this world, and so why not you?

 

David Turetsky  33:32

Absolutely. It's a great pedestal to stand on.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  33:35

Absolutely.

 

David Turetsky  33:36

Susan, thank you very much.

 

Susan Hunt Stevens  33:38

Thank you. It's great to be here. And thanks for having me.

 

David Turetsky  33:41

My pleasure. Dwight, as always, thank you!

 

Dwight Brown  33:43

Thank you. And thank you so much for being with us, Susan, it's been really informative for me.

 

David Turetsky  33:48

And thank everybody for listening. And if you found value in this, please follow us. If you know somebody who might find value in the podcast, please send it their way. Thank you very much again, take care and please stay safe.

 

Announcer  34:01

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