Steve Brink – Custom Compensation Packages: How Employees Want to be Paid

Connect with Steve:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• The Future of Workforce Benefits
• uflexreward
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 18
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 16

• “When you look at future of work . . . it's how you're doing the work, but it's also when and where you're going to be doing the work. People spend a lot of time talking about future of work, but they don't talk about the implication of what that means for the potential of pay.”
• “If you're allowed to provide even more in terms of choice, you start gathering more information. It's actually [your employees] selecting what's important to them. And with that feedback loop, can we actually start making changes to our reward system that are going to better align with the people in the organization? My goodness—isn't that what we all want?”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, I'm joined by Dwight Brown, hey Dwight.

Dwight Brown: 0:53

Hey, David.

David Turetsky: 0:54

How are you, sir?

Dwight Brown: 0:55

I'm great, how you doing?

David Turetsky: 0:56

Great. And also like always, we try and find the brilliant minds inside and outside the world of human resources, technology and the human resource industry to bring us what's the latest what's going on in the world? And how is it affecting each and every one of our businesses? Today we're talking to one of my oldest and dearest friends, Steve Brink. Hello, Steve, how are you?

Steve Brink: 1:19

Hey, David, doing great, yourself?

David Turetsky: 1:22

Outstanding. And so for those of you who have not remembered Steve, Steve was actually in a different role. The last time he was on the HR Data Labs podcast. Steve, why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey from where you were at AIRINC And where you are now?

Steve Brink: 1:38

Sounds good. David. Yeah, well, thanks for that I was a CEO at AIRINC for for 12 years. So and went through quite a bit of transformation through AIRINC from from really more of a it was AIRINC was more of a almost an academic almost a research company to a more commercially successful one. And through that may made a you know, replaced the whole, you know, executive group as well as then went on, and actually ended up selling the company to a Japanese multinational, with my last payout was actually in, in April of this year.

David Turetsky: 2:14

And with that, you moved on.

Steve Brink: 2:16

I hung around as it was thinking what to do was kind of looking at the marketplace and I knew of this one small company who had a mutual client and had stayed close with them because I thought it was an interesting idea and and that's where I ended up being the asked to join them as president and chief revenue officer of a company called uFlexReward. And uFlexReward is a is a company that's kind of a middleware, if you will, in the in the HR space, where it aggregates all the different elements of reward across all the disparate systems across the globe and across the HR function for for companies. And Unilever is one of the one of our signature clients.

David Turetsky: 3:01

And so this isn't, this is, well, this is one of probably a ton of ways along your career where you've taken your start in compensation planning, and made yet another career change, but really, you've stayed in the HR world and you've basically taken HR data and HR processes and HR technologies and turn them a bit on their head and widen them. Right?

Steve Brink: 3:30

Yeah, interesting that you said that you know, while I'm a software guy, but I'm probably more of a data guy first everything that I've done and even even working with you even back in the Towers days and prior to that it was about the data and data first and the data is what's really provides the insight and kind of the the the analysis that you need to make better business decisions the software is an enabler of that. And so throughout my career that's kind of been the bottom line through through going through with with Criterion which was a first company I worked with and then then move to Towers Perrin at that time doing you know, global job evaluation to for the job worth hierarchy and organization then moved to Mercer which was then a lot of all the salary surveys and the benefits surveys and then kind of moved on to to another role looking at data research and then ultimately with AIRINC, which was global mobility data.

David Turetsky: 4:30

And so this leads us to our fun thing that no one knows about you, which is you are the first to release a compensation planning tool, obviously PC based, back in the 80s!

Steve Brink: 4:44

Believe it or not, I'm showing my age a little bit, 1987 when the first release was. An interesting story about that for for you all is that how that product came about was Dave Duffield if you remember that name at all, exactly PeopleSoft as well as Workday founder, is that he was at Interval Systems at the time. And he saw that that was an HRIS system and wanted more point solutions. And we had already had some data around affirmative action planning and succession planning kind of tools, and asked to actually have a compensation planning tool for their clients. And that's kind of how it how it evolved. And it became kind of the beginner of that kind of whole compensation planning. The product was not even in Windows at all because Windows 3.0 was was what had almost been released yet, which was the standard that people really launched the different Windows apps.

David Turetsky: 5:39

Wow. And I had not graduated college yet. So there you go. I gotta leave it there.

Steve Brink: 5:48

I will say one thing, Dave, is that is that I have for the listeners that Dave and I go way, way, way back. And one of the things that I have some old stories that David of when people don't know about it, just probably me and you, obviously several stories. You know, Dave, it was 30, 30 years ago that you you took me to my first NHL hockey game. The New York Rangers against the Islanders. I don't know if you remember that.

David Turetsky: 6:14

Oh, I remember every single one of them. I'm sure the Rangers lost that game. Because

Steve Brink: 6:21

No, they actually won!

David Turetsky: 6:25

I was kidding.

Dwight Brown: 6:26

You were the good luck charm at every single one.

David Turetsky: 6:28

But no, we actually had a good team back then. Yeah, yeah. And it led up to the 94 Stanley Cup. Win. So

Steve Brink: 6:36

Exactly. Exactly. And that was, yeah, and you're the only person that I ever that I ever set up on a blind date? And and if, and I'll tell you what, oil and water are best friends. Compared to how, how that date went. So I apologize for you about that blind date.

David Turetsky: 6:58

Man, we're no, we're actually not gonna go there. We're gonna leave that to the next episode when we see see Steve again. And he can tell us all about that. That'll be the other fun thing that they don't know about me.

Dwight Brown: 7:14

In other words, you're off the future guest list is what he's trying to say.

David Turetsky: 7:17

No, no, no, I actually want to put him on a future guest list because I want to hear about it. Because I don't remember. You put those things out of your head. So today's episode is going to be really a lot of fun, because we've been talking a lot about transparency and pay. But one of the things that we have not talked about yet is the personalization of pay, where people want to make choices around how they're actually paid. Of course, people always say the word more when it's talked about how they want to get paid. But it's not about more. It's about what and how. And so that's what today's episode is all about. So Steve, the first question is, why is personalization of rewards important, especially today?

Steve Brink: 8:12

Well, while there's multi layers that question, Dave, so So let me let me start it this way. It's like, you know, you go to a neighborhood coffee shop, you stand in line, and you just listen to a lot of different orders of how people want their coffee. And I tell you what, nobody's the same, everybody's different. And it's, I think, I feel it's the same way with with pay. And it's going to be increasingly that way where people want it their way they perceive it in a value of different ways of receiving reward. And when you look at future of work, and that's the future work I look at is you know, who's doing the work? Is it crowdsourcing? Is it the gig economy is it is it full time, part time all that it's how you're doing the work, but it's also when and where you're going to be doing the work right? When you start looking at that people talk about spent a lot of time talking about future of work, but they don't talk about the implication of what that means for the potential of pay. And so you know, recent study by E&Y talks about you know, how flexibility is going to be a really important when you start reimagining and work in the future. And flexibility is one of their key items that's going to be going to be needed. And so with everybody different and you know, you want to make sure that you align the rewards with a perceived value. Everybody has kind of different views whether that's a different a different time in your life cycle. You know, if you're if you're young or if you're about closing in on retirement, if you're different kind of lifestyle. Do you are you? Are you married single Are you a bunch of kids? No kids are you? Do you have expensive hobbies? So we've always approached pay by saying, hey, one size fits all you know you're in the structure. Here's the midpoint have a maximum here, here's your bonus target, your bonus bargain is 20% of your base, etc, etc, etc. And so so with that one, there's a question of Do people really believe in their performance management system? On the bonuses? Are the bonuses really deferred comp? Or is it something that, that they really believing that they're really being measured in the right way? It's that, you know, it's it's from all of that, is that the reason for I think we need to start stepping up and providing more personalization of pay.

David Turetsky: 10:32

Well, I mean, look at the way in which benefits get elected, right. We've had the ability to elect whether we're going to receive medical or dental or vision or whatever, for a long time. And the that's never really been a thing with pay. I mean, yeah, on the executive side, you get the deferred rewards piece, potentially. But the question I wanted to ask you is just like benefits, and the executive rewards, which you can actually get deferrals on, it's a one time a year thing, right, because the IRS still hasn't evolved their thinking. And that's constructive receipt. If you know, during the year, you receive what you're not supposed to receive in terms of pay, right from the especially from the executive or the qualified plans on executive reward deferrals. Yeah, how does that change? Or has that changed at all?

Steve Brink: 11:25

Well, one, is that like to just just say, is that in HR, like you mentioned about benefits? It is there is things happening in HR. I mean, when you look at even if you look at mobility benefits, the fastest growing kind of policy in mobility is a core flex offering, where you provide a core amount and you're able to flex it depend upon what what's most valuable is a more education, or is it a larger home, where you're going to etc. So there's already things happening, and even even now, you know, with remote work, David Dwight is that is that, you know, Google and Facebook has mentioned that, hey, if you're not gonna come back to the office, and you've moved to a lower cost area, you know, we might lower your pay. Oh, my gosh, yeah, you're making it. It's all about trade offs. And the trade offs is that I'm willing to live in Des Moines, Iowa versus a Silicon Valley. But the trade off, I'm going to get for living in that where there might be something that I really enjoy family or whatnot in Des Moines, Iowa, is that I'm going to lower my salary by 5%. And I might be okay with that. That's a trade off. So all these things are trade, or, you know, are trade offs. So so when you start talking about kind of, now you're talking about what we're really kind of focusing in on and just just this kind of narrow area is between guaranteed comp and variable comp, if I can simplify it that way. Right. You know, guaranteed is more base in your benefits. Were then on the variable side, it's kind of your variable, your incentive program, you're told your annual incentive or quarterly incentive, or it might be your your long term incentive part. So the question is that, if you if you're going to, you know, start making changes around that, and allow you to do to be able to say, Do I want to shift within within guaranty between between your what you can do, you can buy you can, there are companies that allow you to buy more vacation, so that's switching almost $1 $1, from from from base over into benefits. So you can do that on a one to one basis. But if you're trying to do then more variable, most people would not do a one to one with variable, you're just kind of going to be leaving something guaranteed, and then giving up something with variables, like why would you want to do that? So there's been a, you know, a fast moving consumer goods that they have said that they're gonna actually move, give a premium of 25%. So think about this for every dollar then that you give up on guarantee base, and you put it into variable comp, you'll get 1.25 Target related as that's not a guarantee, though, so you're being able to get a premium for that. So that would be one mechanism of how that could actually work to be around that now there. Now to your point, there's got to be some guardrails, right? There's, you can't put everything in, you know, I'll put all in variable comp. And there's there's a lot of different things that we need to have guardrails about. But this is where, you know, people if I asked you all, would you want to have all guaranteed? Or would you like to say, Yeah, you don't want to I want more, I want to get more than you got to be more performance. I'm going to I'm going to believe in myself that I'm going to produce something more so that I can get more and so if people want more, you can actually shift that to be more in variable comp.

David Turetsky: 14:54

But my question is more around. There needs to be some kind of qualifying event other than a one time event. Your election, there needs to be a qualifying event. Otherwise to be able to make those changes, right, like a job change or life change or something like that. And I don't even know if the IRS allows for that.

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David Turetsky: 15:24

So I guess the question is, how does this happen? How do you actually go through the process of making these changes? If not, on a once a year basis?

Steve Brink: 15:33

Yeah, I for for this is where most of the questions come up. Dave, it is. It is about the now before with if we're, if I had talked about this just a little while ago, you know, two years ago, people would say personalization of base. Why? What are you talking about, you know, base and bonus? Or incentive? People would say, oh, my gosh, no, we can't do that. You know, what are you thinking, now people are recognizing like, Yeah, this is different. Now you're asking, like, what is the mechanics of that? Right? What is the actual mechanics? And there's really no, you don't, you can't do this every month or this kind of thing. But But what what we've seen companies do is actually do this on a on a on a once just like your benefit enrollment. It's almost your total reward enrollment, if you will. And, and that you can then sign up to what you want, and and those types of things. But if there's, if there's a given life event that causes you more that you didn't realize you're gonna have a kid and now you got a kid. I guess that could happen within a year.

David Turetsky: 16:36

Yeah, actually, nine months, I think is the timeframe,

Dwight Brown: 16:40

Unless you're an elephant!

Steve Brink: 16:41

My kid came in only seven months. So it can happen, that is that maybe then you want to you want to migrate to more about about, you know, in guaranteed, you might want to bring some more in guaranteed comp, or whatever to pay for your new expenses of having a little one and expanded family.

Dwight Brown: 17:01

So, Steve, I'm curious, you've seen companies implement this, what have you seen the reaction be from the employee side?

Steve Brink: 17:10

It's, the reaction has been very positive. Now, it's been positive because and in the one that I was very, very, has been more close to, is that people like choice. Yeah, you know, you know, you don't go down to aisle for yogurt, and just have one, one version of yogurt, I think people would be disappointed. But now if you go to the yogurt aisle now there's a lot of different choices of yogurt. And it's the same thing with choice with with everything. And this is the choice, whether you act upon that choice or not. The interesting thing, that there was almost the middle quartile, if you will, didn't make any changes. They were comfort because they didn't know necessarily know, or that maybe maybe we need to inform them. And again, we can go down a whole path about engaging employees more and communicating with employees more and be more transparent with employees and all that. But then then they had the two tails, and the two tails was those that were actually looking for wealth creation. Right? Sure, you put more of an emphasis on on on incentives, right, they wanted more, there was long term incentive, etc. And then there were more that were at a period of their life that they are they didn't necessarily trust the performance management system. And they wanted all guaranteed because they had expenses to do. So if you think about that, it that's kind of how the ultimate results were from that, which was kind of I thought was kind of interesting within itself. But everybody liked a choice whether you pick something or not, you like to have in that choice, the ability to actually choose that, you know, maybe this year, I won't do it, but maybe next year, I will see how it goes or, or what not. So you had those kind of different different elements that was able to really provide and this is just not you think about wealth accumulation was about you know, maybe those that were closing in on retirement, but that's not necessarily the case. There's a an approach called financially independent, retire early called Fire. And there's, there's several young people that that want to get on this fire. And they want to earn a lot more than they want to travel the world and have hobbies or do what they want. And so you have you potentially have those that want to maybe accumulate a lot of wealth up front work really hard for a while and retire at age 40. Who says you have to retire at age 65?

David Turetsky: 19:36

My financial planner, but that's... I'm never gonna retire actually. I'm never retiring, because I have a nine year old who will go to college, you know, when I'm 70. But I guess the other question I had though, Steve, and you're bringing up some great points. What about gig workers who want to get paid today and who you know on demand pay has become a really big deal for them. Is there a play here for them? Or they really just the situation is they're just transactional, it's just day to day with them. They're not a good candidate for this kind of process?

Steve Brink: 20:13

Well, you know, I look at, I look at the gig work and where the future works going on. Now, you almost kind of concentric circles, if you will, you have your core employees that have kind of a lot of your IP, and just really core, and then you have the outside, which is you just want to outsource things that you don't really care, you can actually get that replicated certain times, right? You could you just give it to almost anyone, you know, you train them, they go through the process, then there's that gray band between those right? Where where they kind of have to know a little more what what you're doing to be able to do that. Otherwise, there might be some some startup. So with those, can you treat those differently? Right now in that in that gig most of the time, where you just kind of paying them a fixed amount.

David Turetsky: 20:56

It's transactional.

Steve Brink: 20:57

And the question is, then do you do change that? Do you put in more incentives? That might be team incentive? If they might be working with a team? And kind of bring them that? Yes, they're not employees, but they're kind of acting like an employee? And so is that an avenue to go? And I would say yes. Are there ways of actually doing that, so that you can actually kind of have more team based rewards? For those that are working on a gig. If we all believe, which I think we do, the gig economy is going to continue to grow. And those kind of contract workers, how do you then engage them to be that you're part of you feel like you're still part of the team, one way to do that is kind of his reward and actually providing them more variability in terms of how they want to get paid.

David Turetsky: 21:55

So why don't we transition Steve to talk about the practical steps for actually adopting something like this? How do companies move forward, if they think that this might be a really good idea for them?

Steve Brink: 22:09

Yeah, the thing that the number one thing is that you got to have technology and one of the this is a commercial announcement.

David Turetsky: 22:17

Coming to you from uFlexReward.

Steve Brink: 22:21

But this is what our software does, it's a it's a platform that then agragates, first of all, you have to get all the all the allowances and benefits and rewards that you have across the globe, right. And so you need to put that in one place. And that's what kind of our software does, but you need software to be able to do that a typical HRIS system will not be able to do that, it's not good at that you need a separate system, to be able to administer all this right to be able to check on that and actually do all the things that needs to be done. And, and and monitor and, and the like. So it's a so it's a system on top of an HRIS system. And so that's, that's number one. But some other things is that the culture needs to be ready, that that if you're a more of a paternalistic type company, you know, you probably personalization might not be the way to go. But if you're more about personal accountability, why would you want to do this? Why wouldn't you want to provide 10 to 25%? Allow you to flex that base? You know why not? You know, it's having that. So the culture is got to be ready from that. Right. The other thing and we've tapped, we've kind of spoke about it real briefly, David, was that employees need to be well informed this whole transparency, yeah, employees need to have the information to make a good decision for their personal interest, right? No, we need to tell them what's going on what it is, what is the what are the goals? What are the the collective goals, or the personal goals that are very clear, once at the SMART goals, all that it's very clear in terms of that, so it's all about well informed of and especially if it's tied to the organization, that you're providing information, but that's the positive, you can engage employees with more about this. Yeah. So that's a practical thing is that they need to be well informed. So if you're not good at communicating probably and need not not not a good idea?

David Turetsky: 24:17

No, no, but but I think it goes back to your the culture point that you made, that some cultures don't want to have those communications, and they do not allow for those communications. And it seems very 1970s very 1980s, where you'd have that Iron Fist that says, I'm not going to let our employees talk about their pay. What, come on. I mean, that was that was Morgan Stanley, back in the early 90s. Who said, you know, I if employees talk about their pay, we're going to terminate them and did and, you know, that's that's the way things were, you know, now we're at a situation where the culture has now said, Hey, listen, I want to understand How My pay is determined. I want to know what my competitiveness is. And I want to know why, you know, why am I being paid what I am? And if not, you know, there's potential for suits. And so I think that the culture around pay is changing. And, you know, I'm sorry to do this to millennial folks. But I think that the the Generation Z and millennials have really made, you know, those kinds of things, things we can talk about now, we can speak about how we're getting paid. And, you know, whereas this has been open in the municipal areas for many years and college areas for especially public colleges for any years, why can't we talk about pay, and hopefully that's broken down. And so we can actually go that that direction.

Steve Brink: 25:44

Dave, one thing I'll I am shocked by the number of companies that don't provide complete total, you know, you know, digital total reward statements, right, not just comp statements, or this kind of thing. I'm talking about total rewards, showing showing everybody online, your total rewards, all your allowances, all your benefits, everything that you're getting, and be able to do that online. So you can check on anytime you want to do. The number of companies that do that don't do that is just surprising. I know a lot of companies do this kind of manually, they do it outsourcing, they kind of chug along and it's like, I'm talking about just doing it online. And I think the biggest thing is that because it's so dispersed, it's all over it's benefits and benefits system, yes, comp is in HRIS, allowances are in spreadsheets somewhere in the like.

David Turetsky: 26:31

it's siloed. And the effort that's taken to bring it all together is not an easy one. And the moment something changes that all falls apart until someone goes through and does the work. And so because it's been so siloed, it becomes a you know, a constant tail chasing exercise.

Steve Brink: 26:50

Geez, do you just did a commercial for uFlexReward there, David.

Dwight Brown: 26:55

Attaboy David!

David Turetsky: 26:55

Actually Salary.com does something like that too. That was for Salary.com, please see Salary.com for your total reward statements needs. But seriously, you know, it is hard. And for those companies that do it, you know, kudos to them for companies who constantly are showing people how much they're getting not just on the base and bonus, and, you know, the short and long term incentive plans, but also in your benefits plans as well. And other things, too. It goes beyond, you know, just your base bonus and benefits. It also goes to the entirety of, you know, what's the relationship between the employee and the employer.

Steve Brink: 27:34

Exactly right, Dave.

Dwight Brown: 27:35

Well, and I think that that ties well to what you were saying at the beginning of this question, where a lot of it comes down to the communication, and a lot of it is cultural aspects of things. Because one of the scenarios that I can see play out is, you know, you go out and you say, you know, what, we're going to offer you flexibility in the rewards. If you take lower pay, you'll get, you know, X days more PTO, or whatever that looks like, and you're going to have a contingent of employees out there that their first reaction is going to be, what's the catch, you're trying to lower my pay! What you know. And if you if you've got that cultural aspect already established, you've got that open communication, and you know, how to communicate these things. And, you know, to your point about the total rewards statements, I think that that helps to pave the pave the way for those conversations, but I can I can almost picture in my head sort of this little this hump that you have to get over, if you start to adopt this sort of methodology of for pay.

Steve Brink: 28:40

Dwight, I think that's right, I think the part of the part of the issue is that we've had this one size, quote, unquote, one size fits all for a long time. And so you know, there's gonna be early adopters of this. And there's going to be then the mainstream once they see it working and other things, and people, people start talking and everything else. And it's like, well, yeah, I want that too. Because it's just, it's just people have been so wedded to this in the past. It's like safety. It's, you know, change is hard. Yep. And most people I would say are risk, you know, risk averse in that in that they don't like change, no. And so and so from this perspective, I think there will be a buildup, but what I saw happening is happening more and more, it's like, people are starting to see this. And like I said, it's not mainstream yet. But there have been early adopters. And now it's like the word is kind of getting out. And there's more interest in this like, yeah, maybe we should be doing that. But I'm not sure how, but but there's interest in this. Yeah.

David Turetsky: 29:39

Well, if people want to know how I think we now know who we can call to actually get it to happen which is called Salary.com first, and we'll point you to uFlexReward. But, but as you said it will take it will take change and it will take some handholding and it may actually have to start small and might actually have to start in pockets in order to be able to be successful. And to test it, I like to actually start with testing new HR strategies with groups of employees that might adopt it, and then see how it goes. Because you know, it, it sounds great, and it feels great. And it's the right way of doing rewards. And whether it's good for your company and your culture will depend on how it's adopted. So this is one way of actually getting that to happen.

Steve Brink: 30:33

Yeah, and, David, it's interesting, because, you know, there's, there's a lot on People Analytics on your on your podcast, there's quite a bit on that, right. But the thing about that is, it's really data driven, which is great. And I'm a big believer in the people workforce intelligence, whatever word you want to put the wrapper on. But but people still can't measure people's heart, right? can't measure, you know, the brain, that's information that's not in a system somewhere, right? And so but if you're allowed to provide even more in terms of choice, sure, you start gathering more information, if your whole entire you offer this up, and everybody goes to guaranteed comp, and don't do variable, that's probably a little loopback telling you something, you know, do they trust what you're doing? Are they thinking about, you know, staying with a company, are they you know, there's a lot of interesting things by actually going It's not based on data, it's actually them actually selecting what's important to them, can we actually start doing and making changes to reward a reward system that's going to better align and more engaged, lower turnover and actually have ultimate better results for the organization. And and the people in the organization? My goodness, doesn't that? Isn't that what we all want?

David Turetsky: 31:52

Right? Yes, exactly. We can't argue with that. So Steve, we've been talking about the personalization of rewards, and why it's important to organizations, how they would do it, and what are some practical steps of getting there? And we've talked about some potential challenges as well. What other things would you want to leave our listeners with before we close?

Steve Brink: 32:24

I think though, I think the biggest, the the biggest thing I'd probably leave with people is change is constant, it's kind of oxymoronic statement change is constant. But all of a sudden, we haven't changed kind of the reward part or the compensation part. And everything else is changing around the future of work, the benefits, flexibility, all this kind of thing. But the one area that we really hasn't changed yet, in HR is is kind of our one size fits all, you go into this grade, you get this pay, or you get you get this bonus percent, I think we need to start questioning that, especially when you're you know, when you have a two 3%, merit, Merit budget, is that something that's really motivating for people? Or do we need to be thinking about this very differently? Because we spent a lot of time on, you know, bonuses going through the bonus process, going through the merit, increase budget and those types of things? Is that really the best way that we should be helping our employees gain or gain rewards for their future, but also is better in the performance of the company as well? I think that's something that we just all need to be be focused on, is how do we continue to enhance what we deliver to our employees?

David Turetsky: 33:35

Well said, Steve, thank you so much.

Steve Brink: 33:38

Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Dwight.

Dwight Brown: 33:41

Thank you. Appreciate you being on the show with us today Steve.

David Turetsky: 33:45

Again.

Dwight Brown: 33:46

Again, exactly. And we will get you back for that story that we never got to finish.

David Turetsky: 33:51

Yeah, we'll we'll get there eventually. may actually be a blooper or a B side to this one. And thank you all for listening. We really appreciate you and if you liked this episode, please hit subscribe. And if you know someone who might actually like it as well, please forward it to them. Thank you very much. Take care and stay safe.

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