Jan Johnson – Moving HR Tech from the Personnel Action Form to Employee Engagement

Connect with Jan:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• UKG
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 14
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 12

• “When you think about companies not being able to find enough applicants—how many people are there in the world? Something like 8 billion, right? And [there are] 330 million in the US. So is the problem that we can't find applicants, or we're not looking in the right place, or we're not in a broad enough spectrum?”
• “That’s really one of the most important things in recruiting today: the ability to build rapport and a sense of belonging with the candidates and to help them understand the culture and what it is to work there.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find you fascinating people to describe and discuss the world of people analytics and HR data and technology. Today, we have with us one of my best friends. And one of my work family, Jan Johnson. Hey, Jan, how are you?

Jan Johnson: 1:07

Hey, David. I'm great. How are you?

David Turetsky: 1:08

Good. It felt weird saying Jan Johnson, because I know you as Jan Brockway. And a lot of people do who've worked with you in the past. So we'll get to that in a minute. But I also want to introduce my friend Dwight Brown from Salary.com. Hey, Dwight.

Dwight Brown: 1:23

Hey David.

David Turetsky: 1:24

So for those of you who don't know Jan, Jan's been in the technology world for a long time. But the reason why she's in the technology world is because we recruited her away from Sun Microsystems eons ago, where she was in the world of HR doing talent management, performance management, you were kind of like the guru of Performance Management at Sun right, Jan?

Jan Johnson: 1:46

Yeah, I was. I really own the technology and business process for performance, career development, succession, and really loved all things HR. And at that time, we were talking about integrated talent management. And to show how old we are. If you did a search then it did not come up about HR.

David Turetsky: 2:11

No, in fact, performance management back then was all about corporate performance management. Right?

Jan Johnson: 2:16

Right, right, absolutely.

David Turetsky: 2:19

So now you're at the Ultimate Kronos Group, correct?

Jan Johnson: 2:23

I am and I lead product management, for recruiting, onboarding and our quarry.

David Turetsky: 2:30

That's outstanding. For those of you who don't know Jan, you have missed on a wonderful, brilliant thought leader. Jan and I have known each other for years, we worked together at work scape, which became ADP. And she's an all around fun person. She loves her grandkids. But what's the one fun thing about you that no one knows.

Jan Johnson: 2:53

Well, it's hard to find a thing that no one knows when you've been in the industry as long as I have. But what many people may not know is that my best stress reliever on a Friday night after or Saturday, after a long week of work is getting on our ATV or UTV and those to ride through. And just like challenge yourself of how much spray you can spray by hitting those mud puddles at the right speed.

David Turetsky: 3:23

That's really funny, because my fun thing to do for a stress reliever would be on my Apple TV.

Jan Johnson: 3:31

I'd love to get out and just ride on the on the four wheelers and just get completely muddy.

David Turetsky: 3:36

Yeah, well, that's now now we know you're dirty. You're a dirty person.

Jan Johnson: 3:43

At times!

David Turetsky: 3:44

Yes. Well, we all like to roll in the mud. I like to roll on ice, because I'm a goalie. But there you go. So our topic for today is people, their work, and their data. Can you spend a minute talking about what you mean by that?

Jan Johnson: 3:57

Yes. So today everybody's talking about there's, you know, all kinds of things around people, whether it be talking about the great resignation, or the great attrition or how do you keep engagement, the difference of the millennial generation from our generation. And what they're doing is really changing than it was even two or three years ago, and then how do you measure all of that with the data, and not just to HR measures, but to business measures of I will act in the business by the work that's being performed by the people doing that performing.

David Turetsky: 4:46

So Jan, what is different between now and the past so what's the big deal? We've always had generations come and go in the workplace. Why is now any different?

Jan Johnson: 4:56

Yeah, so the first thing I think of is when you and I first met we were the still the new people in the HR industry.

David Turetsky: 5:04

I was telling you how long ago was that we met, by the way, Jan.

Jan Johnson: 5:06

And now, you know, we're the ones nearing retirement. And while we've always had generations in the workforce, probably the differences between the generations are more stark today than they were then. And the number of people, if you think about, you know, we're not baby boomers, but we're group after the baby boomers, which were the largest workforce that you know we'd ever seen. And now, the millennial and the Gen X, Gen Y are smaller generations, and they've grown up around technology. So their expectations didn't work. And we have to help managers and organizations understand those differences, and meet those differences.

David Turetsky: 5:53

And so I think I understand what you're saying. So, you know, I look at my kids, they all grew up with, well, some kind of technology, whether it was iPods, iPads, iPod minis, iPod Shuffles, iPod, whatever, they've had iPhones since they were 10, or 11, or 12. So, in fact, I think the story is my, when my first kid was born, they weren't around. But my second kid, after he was born, I was literally online, at an Apple Store waiting to pick up the first iPhone. So there you go.

Jan Johnson: 6:27

Thinking about that, and applying that to kind of today in the recruiting world. We have people that don't even have email address. They don't use email at all. And I, my sons use email, primarily to get, you know, the notifications or the confirmations when they order something online. Right. But that's all they use email for. Right. So when you think about applying that to the recruiting world, and you're it changes from, we used to do everything based on email. And now you have to rethink that paradigm.

David Turetsky: 7:03

And, you know, at some point, we went to QR codes, when we were recruiting, you know, you'd walk into a store, there was a QR code there, instead of getting the email id or sorry, the the URL or the email address to send your resume to? Has that changed at all? Is that still what you think is kind of the fashion today?

Jan Johnson: 7:25

So QR codes aren't as much the fashion today, it's more of let me text you a link or text to apply. Right? And I think about it and say, Who the heck applies for a job through a text? But if you think about, you know that 16 year old that wants his first job or her first job, and they don't have work history, his name, contact information, and maybe a reference or two, there really isn't anything to not be truthful about. So those things like text to apply are really now table stakes.

Dwight Brown: 8:01

Well, and we've, I mean, look at the the recent year and a half with COVID. And what impact that is going to have, I mean, we're in this we're in this zone where the employers are having difficulty getting applicants. And so they want to use those technologies to make it as easy as possible for everybody. And, you know, I think year over a year, we're going to see some exponential change in terms of the the ease of application and the technologies that we that we use around that.

Jan Johnson: 8:36

Do I think that's a great point. And when you think about data, and and companies not being able to find enough applicants, how many people are there in the world, something like 8 billion right? And 330 million in the US. So is the problem that we can't find applicants or we're not looking in the right place, or we're not in a broad enough spectrum, right. So now, HR is really around equity, inclusive, belonging, because the generation coming into work is smaller, and you've got to open your spectrum wider, to be able to find those people. And you've got to make your company. So those people see people like them in your own company.

Announcer: 9:22

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David Turetsky: 9:33

So let me transition then to question two, which is how does all of this impact HR tech? How does HR tech change to meet the need?

Jan Johnson: 9:45

Yeah, so when I first started in HR technology, it was really around moving the forms to the computer. And David, you'll remember us talking about paving the cow path, right? We call that paving the cow path. And you look today and you wonder how much of that has really evolved. We had that focus on employee and manager self service. And as a product manager, I wanted to build the HR system that everyone couldn't wait to use. And I'm still waiting for that day. Right?Because people want to use HR technology, to get their paychecks, to look for a new job when I'm upset at my boss or my, I'm frustrated with my work, right? And so now is really, how do I bring it into the technology that people use every day?

David Turetsky: 10:36

Yeah, and if you think about the difference between consumer technologies, and the HR technologies, HR technologies are really kind of stuck in that mud of that personnel action form, right. And I have to capture all those things, some of which is compliance based, okay. And so we have to, but some of which are just choices. I mean, we're making choices to stay in the 50s and 60s, rather than upgrading to the 2020s. And, you know, beyond.

Jan Johnson: 11:06

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And one of the analogies I use with my team is, I'm reading the news and see something I wanted to share on LinkedIn. How easy is it to do that? It's really easy. Right? So let's contrast that to HR technology, you know, whether it's getting an attaboy, in my email for a project I just finished, or, you know, the project management, we're doing a number of projects through teams, how easy is it to bring that into my performance management? Development? Right. And I've picked up skills through doing work and working with other people that aren't reflected on my profile, because it's not easy to do. How do we bring that consumer types pieces into the HR technology and really drive value for the employee and manager conversation, because at the end of the day, that's what it's about. It's not as much about documenting it, for legal reasons, as it is driving the conversation for both business success, as well as individual and people success.

David Turetsky: 12:16

If we think about the world of work, it used to be you got hired for a purpose, you did that purpose, and only that purpose, you really didn't vary things because that was someone else's job to do. And then, you know, you went home. Today, because of layoffs. And because of the amalgam of things and technology that we have to do, there really is no beginning and end to what someone does. It's only their own, I guess, limitations or skill sets. So the job description, performance evaluation, the the things you're talking about, they are artifacts of an old time that has not modernized. And therefore, when we start thinking about how do you measure success in an organization? How do you measure personal success? It's so hard to do, because people's work, isn't that easily categorized anymore?

Jan Johnson: 13:15

It's really true. And at work, I'm a member of our employee resource group. And one of we over a Veterans Week, we had a great webcast with leaders in the organization. And one of the questions we got was, how do you make that transition from knowing clearly what gets you promoted in the military, to the promotion criteria in corporate America, and there are similarities and there are differences. But that's one of the differences you're talking about, David, that it makes me think about is, you know, in the military, there's so many slots, I had to have a certain test score, I had to have a certain evaluation score, it was black and white. And in corporate America, we always say, you have to have built the skills, but there has to be a business need, well, what's that business need? How many senior product managers do I need, versus just product managers? And, you know, it's just much more gray than it used to be the same as our job descriptions.

David Turetsky: 14:15

And we hold ourselves to a standard and we have to, right? You know, who are we promoting? Why are we promoting them? What are we promoting them to? There needs to be a lens on those things, because you don't want to promote the wrong people. And you want to promote and, and highlight and and celebrate the right things. But unfortunately, you know, we know that and you know, in the world of DIE&B that people there are certain people who aren't getting promoted as much as others. And so how do you change that?

Jan Johnson: 14:48

That's a lot of where I'm focusing right now is how do we start to highlight the hidden bias and, you know, and then the challenge is, how do you do that in the places where they work? Right? Right, you can't do that just in an HR system that they use once a month or every two weeks, you have to help raise those awarenesses where they actually work. So in frankly, that's part of what keeps me going, is looking at how do we make those transitions and challenges. And I think it will be a journey. These days I'm disappointed that we haven't made more progress than we've made. I think the next couple of years, we're gonna see tremendous progress in that area.

David Turetsky: 15:41

So, at the beginning, we talked about when we met and how young we were, and I can't believe it, but we yeah, we were pretty young. And now that we're reaching retirement, and you look back on everything, what's the most surprising or shocking thing that you can think about? Looking back?

Jan Johnson: 15:57

Yeah, I mean, and looking back, I look at how I've changed, a lot of it has been that my leadership has really changed. And what matters most to me, is enabling the organization to grow, sharing my experiences and my learning, and really coaching the younger generation. It's really fun to have those conversations with my kids, as well as some of my employees who are the same age as my kids, and really help them think about their behaviors, where they really want to go in their career and is it about moving up, or doing different work, and what motivates them. And that's what I encourage people to think about is not just the paycheck is very important. And the paycheck comes with levels and promotions, and all of those things. But it doesn't matter if you don't love what you're doing. And so when I talk to my boss, she knows with me, it's all about doing something fun and challenging now. It's not about getting that next promotion, how can I grow? And how can I help others grow?

Dwight Brown: 17:08

I've been having that same conversation, I have two college age kids. And you know, they're both in that stage of trying to figure out what they're going to major in, you know, thinking about their career paths and everything. And, you know, number one, being where I am, it seems like the years have passed so quickly. Like, I still question whether or not I'm qualified to give them advice on that, but I'm young at heart. Even if my face doesn't show it, but, you know, the other thing is exactly like you talked about having been through these various experiences in the work world and in life, and being able to mentor them and, you know, talk with their friends and whatnot, and just say, Look, guys, do what you love. Because if you're in a job where you're miserable, it's, it's not going to matter how much you make, it's not going to matter, the prestige. And, and then the other piece is the technology. And I remember, my one of my first jobs out of college, we had email, but it was on the old mainframe, and, you know, moving to Microsoft Outlook, felt like a monumental change. And it was it was, you know, it's always nice. It's, it is nice to be able to look back and have some experience and some wisdom to be able to offer and, and also push them on the technology and push them to be sure that they're keeping up with the technology.

David Turetsky: 18:44

And we're talking to someone who's building the technology for the next generation. And, Jan, I think one of the things that you have talked about a lot is engagement of not just employees, but have candidates and making sure that the right people are being captured, or at least their information is being captured. Because even if there isn't a job available now that fits their skills or fits their, their particular wants and needs, that you create a community and you create that belonging so that when something does come up, you capture that you reach out to them.

Jan Johnson: 19:24

Yeah, that's really one of the most important things in recruiting today is the ability to be able to bring build rapport, and a sense of belonging with the candidates, and really help them understand the culture and what it is to work there. Because it was for you and I and Dwight when we entered the workforce for the generations today it's really about feeling that connectedness and that's harder in a kind of remote environment. But you definitely have to build that the candidates and then deliver on that when they become employees,

David Turetsky: 20:02

you know, when I reached out for my first job, it was from a listing in the New York Times. And, you know, had had I not gotten that job because I actually got that job two weeks out of college, but had I not gotten that job, I'm pretty sure I'd have to keep searching through the New York Times, they're not going to hold on to my resume and go, This David Turetsky fellow looks pretty good, we've got to capture his data. Whereas today, with the technologies that we have, you know, you can keep those profiles alive. And you know, you talk about belonging, you can keep pinging them and saying, Hey, follow us on this and follow us on on these social media sites like Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, showing my age talking about those not like TikTok or whatever. But but but you know, the, the, this next generation of employee engagement is more about finding them where they are and connecting with them on where they are, right?

Jan Johnson: 20:54

Absolutely. And as candidates and employees, that you have to meet them where they are, connect with them where they are. And, you know, I think when I was applying for my first job, it was all about selling myself. And now it's as much about selling the organization as it is the candidates selling themselves.

David Turetsky: 21:16

Right, right. And now this whole thing about UX, or EX, actually employee experience as a as a new paradigm and developing not only HR platforms, but also HR communication strategies, candidate communication strategies, all that. That's, that's something new that this, this is not something that was around 30 years ago, this is a much more modern approach, isn't it?

Jan Johnson: 21:42

Yeah, absolutely. And I would even take that a bit further that because belonging is so important, that it really has to be about team experience, employee experience, that, you know, you, you have to think about how the team engaged. And and that team could change definitions every day. Right? Because it could be the team and we had this discussion with our chief diversity officer, that there's days I feel very connected to my teams, the people that work on my team, the team I work on, but there's days I don't feel overly connected to UKG as a whole. Right? So and that's okay. But I have to feel connected somewhere, or I'm going to disengage and start looking elsewhere.

David Turetsky: 22:29

Right. And one of the things we started talking about at the beginning of the show was the how do you measure those things? How do you keep your manager or HR or someone in the loop that says, hey, Jan's a very valuable resource creating our next generation products. How do we make sure she's engaged? How do we make sure she's taken care of? Are we talking her language or the right people reaching out to her not just her boss, but her peers, her colleagues, her mentor? How do we do that? How do we measure that?

Jan Johnson: 23:00

Yeah, so I think that's one of the evolving areas of technology today. And we're also used to those beautiful engagement surveys that we take once or twice a year, and then come up with an action plan that we never execute. Right? So how do you actually make that in the moment and the term we're using now his pulse surveys? So if I think about it, have an employee comes in to clock in for the day, and asking them and you know, I love the concept of a state survey. Right, that you you ask them some questions from the state survey, like, how are you feeling today? Are you excited to be here? You know, what's the one thing that could make you make your work life better? So instead of waiting for those one or two times a year, how do we capture that data, analyze it in real time, and provide actionable actions that we done, actionable work to the managers? Because I go back two years ago, I said, nobody goes to school to be a manager. Right. We learn it as we go. And, you know, there's psychology and all kinds of things you can take. But for the most part, our managers, they are people that were operationally really good. And we promote them to managers. So we need to give them easy to consume actions they can take. Whether we, you know, Dwight asked for some time off days before he needs it. And he's really on the cusp of using all of his time off. And so giving you a recommendation of Hey, David, do a one on one with Dwight. And here's some conversation starters to ask.

David Turetsky: 24:42

And how about that frustration that a manager feels when they have no idea where the accrual, you know, where the where the accumulators are to see how many days does he have left? Why do I have to go and search for that stuff? It should be at my finger. I should know where that is. I shouldn't have to be sent to get an MBA on how to manage people from or take a class at least, because that should be at the ready. And all those tools should be at a manager's disposal so that we know where we can go to find it.

Jan Johnson: 25:12

And what are the current trends, right? Like, could there be a highlight that this person has something going on in their life that they haven't shared with you yet, but the organization could help them. And again, back to the point of how do you bring that to them, where they're working, and not make them go and seek it out.

David Turetsky: 25:32

And that's the difference between modern UX and modern EX around HR, it has to be insightful, it has to give you information before you ask for it, and provide it to you in a way that you don't have to search for it. You don't have to call the people in payroll or HR to find it out, because they've got to get on with other things. And so, until that actually happens, we if we are going to HR is always going to look like that, you know, that record keeper, and we got to get out of that business.

Jan Johnson: 26:04

Absolutely. And I would just add on, you have to be able to surface that to them where they are when they need it. Whether that be in Slack, in teams, in their scheduling system, in their finance system, wherever it is that they spend the majority of their time,

David Turetsky: 26:22

which is usually email, their chat bots, or whatever. So Jan, today, what we've tried to do is talk about how work is happening across the generations. What's different about it today? And how is the technology enabling, disabling or making it challenging for employees and managers to work together? Is there anything else you want to add before we close?

Jan Johnson: 26:56

No, I think the only thing I would add is that, you know, you and I both know, it's really an evolving journey. And the business has to keep pushing us to make that progress. And I look forward to the day where we're having these discussions not only with HR people, but with the operational people and the business people. And they're asking us and pushing us to drive drive it forward because they see the value. And that's really when we've kind of made it and I can retire.

David Turetsky: 27:28

So you're not going to retire until 2040 or 2050 now, is that what you're saying?

Jan Johnson: 27:34

Maybe that's too high a bar?

David Turetsky: 27:36

It's a very high bar, Jan, a very high bar. I'm not going to retire till then, because I have a nine year old child. But that's a different story. Jan, thank you so much for joining. We really appreciate it. And we hope we can have you back on another episode of the HR Data Labs.

Jan Johnson: 27:51

Yeah, thank you. Fun. I always love talking about HR technology and how we continue to drive the world forward.

David Turetsky: 27:58

Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Dwight. Thank you.

Dwight Brown: 28:02

Thanks for having me, as always, and Jan, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

David Turetsky: 28:07

And thank you very much for listening. We appreciate you being here. If you like the episode, please hit follow and maybe suggest that others in your circle might like it as well and send it over to them. We appreciate your support. Thank you so much. Take care and please stay safe.

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