Rep. Josh Cutler and Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley – Bill H.1849 and How Everyone Benefits From Pay Transparency

Connect with Rep. Fluker Oakley:

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Connect with Rep. Cutler:

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Connect with Dwight:

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• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

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• david.turetsky@salary.com

 

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Is Pay Transparency and Reporting Coming to Massachusetts?
• How to Achieve Pay Transparency for Your Company
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 17
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 15

• “As a woman and a black woman at that, I recognize and know firsthand inequities with pay, and it has to stop somewhere.” -Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley
• “The hiring process can be costly—investing in personal time in candidates who don't share the same salary expectation is really a waste of company resources and the candidates' time. By putting, you know, the pay out from the beginning and the outset, you're removing that” -Rep. Josh Cutler

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find people who are inside and outside the world of human resources to bring you what's happening in the world that affects you today. I have two phenomenal guests who will talk to us about the absolute latest about what's happening in the world of pay transparency in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I have Representative Brandy Fluker Oakley and Representative Josh Cutler here. Both of you, welcome to the program.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 1:16

Thank you. Great to be here.

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 1:17

Thank you. Good to be here.

 

David Turetsky: 1:18

So before we get into the topic, there are two things we have to cover. First of all, if you want to give one or two minutes about who you are, and the second thing is something fun! Why don't we first start with Representative Cutler tell us one or two fun things about you.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 1:34

All right, David. Well, I'll give it a shot. Hello, everybody. Great to be here. My name is representative Josh Cutler. I'm a state representative in Massachusetts. I represent the sixth Plymouth District which is towns of Duxbury, Pembroke, Marshall, Hanson and Halifax. I'm in my sixth term and I'm currently the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Labor and Workforce Development. That's not a fun fact but that's important fact. But let's say a fun fact would be I'll give you two fun facts. One is I'm a decent juggler. And two is I'm an amateur historian. I've written a couple of books.

 

David Turetsky: 2:03

Oh, cool. Well, you have to give us some links to those so we can help people buy them for you. And Representative Fluker Oakley, how about you?

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 2:10

Thanks for having us, David. So very briefly, my name is Brandy Fluker Oakley. I'm a state representative in Massachusetts. I represent the 12 Suffolk, which includes part of the city of Boston, specifically some towns including Mattapan, Hyde Park, and Dorchester and some of the Town of Milton as well. And fun facts about me, I always struggle with this question, because I'm like, Is that fun? I don't know. But I've been skydiving and bungee cord jumping, and I am a bit of a thrillist. So I look forward some adventures ahead.

 

David Turetsky: 2:41

So the co-host that I have on the program, his name is Dwight Brown. He loves doing exactly that. And I'm sure that he would he's kicking himself right now for not being on the program to talk to you about his misadventures. I like to call them insurance moments that.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 2:56

Just just for the record, I don't find either one of Brandy's fun, fun facts fun at all. In fact, I find them horrifying, I mean scary and terrifying. So more power to her. But I can never do that.

 

David Turetsky: 3:08

No, I can't either. I can't either. That's why I applaud both of you for juggling as well as for for

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 3:13

Juggling is a lot safer, I think.

 

David Turetsky: 3:15

Depends on what you're juggling.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 3:17

That's true. That's true.

 

David Turetsky: 3:18

The topic we have today is near and dear to my heart. I've been talking about pay transparency as well as pay equity for a long time. And for those of you who listen to the HR Data Labs podcast, you know that we talk a lot about it. And we talk a lot about the positives and about the things that that make it important for companies to disclose a lot of things about jobs, especially about pay, so that it prevents pay inequities from happening. So today we're gonna be talking about what is called H.1849, which is the legislation that these two phenomenal people have launched, I guess you could say or sponsored in the Massachusetts House.

 

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David Turetsky: 4:09

So the first question is, what is 1849? And where did it come from? How did you guys sit around and talk about, you know, where does pay transparency and how is it gonna affect the Commonwealth of Massachusetts?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 4:23

Sure. Well, I'll jump in since I originally filed it and Brandy can can jump in and correct me and make me look good. So it actually it credit goes to a constituent of mine. Their name is Megan Driscoll, and she came to me with this legislation now, almost, I think four years ago, as someone who had run a business and was very concerned about pay equity and wage equity. She came to me with this idea, and we filed it as a bill and we've made progress ever since. But to answer your question, David and I think it's it's a pretty simple bill, but I think it accomplishes quite a bit. You know, it basically you know, the bill is one page. It's just saying that when you when you are in the hiring process, and posting a position for for hire, that you disclose the salary range of that position, whether it's whatever the range may be, that's up to you, but that you disclose that range. And that would apply, whether it is a new position or whether someone is transferring maybe being promoted internally, as the case may be. So it's a really simple thing. We think it's a quite a powerful thing, though. Studies show that, you know, we know that women and people of color do not earn equal pay for equal work. And studies show that salary negotiations and questions about salary history are one way that this wage gap is perpetuated. And so to solve that, and to fight back against that, we bring salary transparency into the process. And that has been shown that that is a big equalizer, a way to level the playing field. And so that's really what our bill is all about.

 

David Turetsky: 5:41

Absolutely. How about you, Brandy? What are your thoughts on the on the bill?

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 5:45

Yeah, so Josh articulated very well how the bill originated. And I think just from my experiences as a professional trying to climb the ladder in various ways, certainly, what my previous pay was, was often a barrier, or I didn't know what other folks were making. And so while I may have negotiated my salary, it wasn't necessarily to the same level. And I often share a story of how I was working a job as an executive director, and I had tried to negotiate my pay, they wouldn't meet me where I want it to be met. And I was ready to make a change. So I said, You know what, I'll just take the job, then I'll show my worth, and hopefully get, advocate on the performance review cycle for higher salary. And they weren't going to move on to salary but they were hiring for the same role, and a similarly situated city as Boston. And on that just job description, because they were working with an outside consultant who knows that publicizing the pay is good for equity in business. And in the HR world, I saw the exact salary that I was looking for posted on that job description. So I said, Hey, I saw for this position in this city, you're willing to pay this amount. I've pulled the index data on how my city and this city are darn near identical. I would like you to give me the salary and had it not been publicized, I wouldn't have been able to advocate for myself and certainly as a woman as a black woman at that I've recognized and know firsthand those inequities with pay, and it has to stop somewhere. And I think this bill does a great job of helping to level that playing field.

 

David Turetsky: 7:19

It's hard not to get emotional about this conversation. Because there are so many people who cannot advocate for themselves. They're not, they don't have either the the the ability, like they can't lose their job, like they have to support their family. So they can't push things. They don't feel like they're in that position. So one of the things that transparency does is it does empower you, it empowers people to say, Hey, this is my career. This is where I want to be. Why can't I find out what that pay is? And I'll just give you a quick story. When I worked for Morgan Stanley back in the early 90s. I did compensation for them. I was part of the compensation department. And as part of that, one of the things that we talked to with the executives is, you know, the watercooler talk about pay. And one of the rules that we had, and this was early 90s, was if you talked about pay you got fired, because we didn't want people to gossip. And it goes obviously, towards the, you know, if you know what this other deal was, then you'll want it too. And we now live in the world that that was not the age of the internet. Now, we live in the age of the internet, where a lot of these things are much more obvious, and they're more transparent. And one more really funny thing, when that story was happening with that reporter for the Boston news, news station, who interviewed us for that story around pay transparency. He told the story about how one of his students asked him about his pay, and he wouldn't tell her in the public setting. Well, I'm the one who would disclose my pay during that story. And that's the only thing he took from that. But I guess I, and this is where I'm going to ask you guys as well, I don't feel that pay necessarily is something that defines me. But pay is a way for me to obviously be compensated by the people I work for. But it doesn't define who I am emotionally or mentally. Do you feel that one of the things that people are going to be dealing with is that emotional and that maturity issue about now learning about pay, not only about their pay relative to others, but like you were dealing with Brandy and learning about pay and then having to have that maturity that you did, or to have that emotional reaction to it?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 9:45

Thank you, David. It's a great question. And I think we're fortunate here in Massachusetts, at least, you know, we're kind of building on the shoulders of other people who have gone before us and really done a lot of good work in this space. And back in 2017, we passed a major gender pay equity bill that did some of the things you're talking about. You know, trying to make talking about salary not taboo anymore and prohibit people from being asked questions about that, you know, because we know that that can perpetuate wage gaps too. And so this is sort of pay equity. 2.0 I think. So shout out to those who came before us. And I would say, you know, Brandy just gave a really powerful anecdote about her own experiences. And I just want to share one that that came to me when this first issue came up. And if people may recall your listeners about the debate about the US Women's National Soccer, going back couple years, and which just so happens, I represent one of my district in my district, one of the members of the team is from the district. And so I'm very, very proud of that. But so we were talking about that. And, you know, the reason we were, we had a sort of a national debate about pay equity and why the women weren't making as much as the men when they were clearly number one, they did better.

 

David Turetsky: 10:44

Exactly!

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 10:45

But why they weren't making as much for the same job. And so we had that national discussion, I think, which was really healthy. And you can come down on that however you want. But we had that discussion. And the reason we were able to do that is because we knew the data, we knew the salary, we had transparency, so we're able to have that conversation. And that was what this is all about, really just putting it out in the open letting us have the conversation. And people can form whatever opinions they want. But we at least were on a level playing field and gets this is really all about.

 

David Turetsky: 11:09

Do you think that there's this visceral reaction from an emotional perspective about knowing other people's pay and knowing or trying to judge your pay against other people in that way?

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 11:21

I don't know if there's a visceral reaction. I think, if the numbers don't line up for similar work, then certainly someone might feel like it's an unjust situation or an unfair situation. And there might be a reaction there. And I think that Josh mentioned the need to level the playing field. I personally think this also helps with recruitment. And former lives, I've been an executive coach, I still do executive coaching, I do management training, I work adjunct basis for a nonprofit that does managerial trainings, and there are tons of great organizations hiring. And then they'll ask me to share the job description. And the first question I ask is, how much does it pay? And not because I'm trying to get into the finances of organization, but if you want me to help you find a quality candidate, I need to know what the salary is because different people are at different stages in their life. So there might be someone who's newer in their career and can take more of an entry level salary, and they're happy to do that. There could be someone who might just be returning to the workforce, maybe they left for caregiving reasons, or they decided to travel the world. And now they're coming back. And they're saying to themselves, you know, what, I don't need as much of a high salary, I want to have a huge impact. Here's what I'm willing to work for. And I think that the the trepidation and fear and the emotion in my experience has been more so on the employer side than the employees side, as opposed to just stating what it is and allowing folks to navigate it as best as possible with that information.

 

David Turetsky: 12:44

We know that public officials when they get into those jobs, their pay is disclosed. Right? I mean, it's it's there, you know, you can look up what your your mayor, your committee members, what they make. And that's been, that's been law for a long time, right? It's not just a Massachusetts thing. That's, that's across the country, for the most part. So actually, there was a story about Penn State, their basketball coach, and he went to a new, a new university, and they hired a new basketball coach, and they were talking about the relative value and based on the numbers, which is, to me exactly what you want, you want to talk about, what can someone do, and their experience and their experience levels. And, and this was Brandy, I think this is to your point, you know, when someone's going for that job, do they have the right experience for it? Do they have the right training for it? And are they well suited for it? To me, that's what you're getting when you have pay transparency. You're trying to match your skills, your education, all the things that you're going to bring to the job to the job. And if you don't know what that is, while you're interviewing, it's kind of a waste of time to get an offer, after you've spent all that time trying to get that job and to realize you're really not qualified, because it's not at the level that you are hoping for.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 14:07

legislation helps accomplish. And, you know, it's pretty simple. If you think about it, you know, the hiring process can be, you know, costly, investing personal time in candidates who don't share the same salary expectation is really a waste of company resources, as well as a waste of the candidates' time. And so by putting, you know, the pay out from the beginning and the outset, you removing that, so you're really doing businesses a favor by removing this impediment, you know, something that, you know, in many cases, and you talked about the public sector, so our salaries are obviously public as public officials. And one thing that public sector I think in Massachusetts has done pretty well that perhaps the business business community could learn from is on most positions working for the Commonwealth, the salary range is posted. And that's been a pretty common practice we see for most public positions increasingly you see this on the on the private sector side as well. What our what our legislation would do importantly is to level the playing field and make everyone you know, abiding by the same rules, which I think is important. So I think there's a business imperative, a business argument here, and also a just a basic fairness argument here, which is why I think we've, we feel pretty good about our bill and the prospects of this term.

 

David Turetsky: 15:17

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck, we have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind, go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So let me go and ask a different question than a lot of states have passed pay transparency legislation. And the Commonwealth has now put, as you said, a very simple pay transparency law out there. And I guess I'm gonna ask a little bit different question that I may have asked before. And that's that, like California went all the way, right, they asked for reporting requirements, they are looking for contractor pay, as well as for employees as well. Ours is relatively simple. In Massachusetts, we're choosing it to be very simple and very straightforward. Was there reason that we went very simple, or did we, you know, did we look at the California legislation and New York legislation and say, No, this is what's right for the Commonwealth?

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 16:26

Well, Josh, as I say, I know you already touched on this. But in Massachusetts, we've already done a fair amount of work on this particular issue. So we already had it as a law that you can't ask someone what their current, previous salaries as a base in order to determine how much you think their work or contribution will be for your company. And so recognize that we already had a strong foundation, there are some other measures that came out of that bill that we passed several years ago. So recognize we already had a strong foundation, this is really and Josh put it so perfectly, 2.0. How can we take it to the next level to really continue to ensure transparency, and certainly looked at other states as as a model to be informed on what could be possible for this bill, but it's really building upon our already strong existing policy.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 17:11

I think Massachusetts, you know, takes a backseat to nobody, you know, on this issue. And, you know, I would say that to my California friends as well. Just one more note, I'd add, you know, there's there's some other legislation that we're also back into sort of I would call companion companion legislation that has to do with data reporting.

 

David Turetsky: 17:25

Sure.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 17:26

So that's a separate piece of legislation that we purposely kept separate that we're working on as well, because we understand that, you know, this is one piece of the puzzle, but having a data is helpful as well. So I think we certainly recognize that, and we're very proud of where Massachusetts has been and where we're going.

 

David Turetsky: 17:39

All right. Well, thank you very much for proposing a very simple, that simple piece of legislation that people can look at and go. This is good, does it you know, it's not complicated. There's, it's easy to follow. It's it. And that's one of the problems

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 17:53

Even I can understand this bill, David?

 

David Turetsky: 17:55

Well, I think you're, you're shortchanging yourself. But But But seriously, though, when I'm dealing with SB 1162, a lot from California. And there's a lot for companies to unpack there. You know, it's the I have one employee here, or I have 100 employees here, I have 10,000 employees here, there's a lot for companies to unpack, and there's a lot of work that they have to do. And so the next question I wanted to ask is, what would you suggest companies do to prepare for pay transparency in the Commonwealth? What do you think that they should do to kind of get themselves ready for it?

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 18:27

Yeah, I'll go first, then Josh, please feel feel free to add on, I think there are a couple of things that companies can do to prepare themselves. One is take a look at how your your salary bands presently, I might encourage folks to proactively do a compensation analysis and see if there are any gaps along gender or race or the type of work that folks are doing that they may think about, okay, how can we make some pay adjustments? Also looking at the market to see oh, we set these rates how long ago, are they so competitive for where we see salaries going? Which we all know, we're feeling the crunch in our pockets as the cost of things is rising qnd I don't think that salaries are rising at the same rate. So I think that's a good first step that companies can do. And then also, you know, we hear this a lot in more of the business world around like design thinking are we whittled it down really base level pilot or test it, maybe just try it out with one geographic location within your organization or one department in your team or organization to get a sense of what it's like and then make any amendments to see oh, it's maybe not as scary as we think it is. And what I do think is really fair about the bill proposed by Josh and myself is that it's only for employers who have 15 people or more. So we recognize for smaller organizations, it might be a different need. And there also might not be the same level of administrative capital to be available to implement this. And so really thinking about how folks can do that compensation analysis and also maybe test or pilot it and either geographic locale or within the division department in the company and see how it goes.

 

David Turetsky: 20:03

Good advice, Representative Cutler?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 20:05

Yeah, it's hard to hard to top that. But I would just say, you know, company, there's nothing that preventing companies from doing this today, they can disclose their salary range right now. You can take our bill and start start following it now. It doesn't have to be common law. And you'd probably be better off anyway. And you'll be ahead of the game. So there you go.

 

David Turetsky: 20:19

We've been advocating this for years. You know, we're, we're very, I guess you could say, we're very pro pay equity. And what we've been trying to do is to try and break down a lot of these barriers, or we've been asking to break down a lot of these barriers. And companies have found that in order to get that push in the back, and I think this bill is a really great push in the back, it gives them the opportunity to say we've got to do it, we've got to start opening up. Compensation for too long has been done in a box, it's been done in the back room, it's been done by people like me, who say, Hey, listen, there's a reason why these things are secret. And one of the things that we're advocating is that people start simplifying. And I think this is where you were going Brandy, start simplifying your programs. Start making it really easy for people to understand, because not everybody has master's degrees, not everybody has, you know, a business degree. And in order to be able to make sure that they understand what these pay ranges are, they shouldn't need to know statistics. So you know, give them an ability to understand this stuff by just making it really simple. At least hopefully, companies will do that. We haven't seen that yet. Although as we consult with companies, that's one of the things we advocate for is make things really simple. And because complexity is not our friend when it comes to transparency.

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 21:38

Yeah, I think the old acronym is KISS, keep it simple, stupid. Just make it as easy as possible, least common denominator here. And I think sometimes companies are hesitant because they say to themselves, Oh, if I post the whole salary range, right, and let's say that ranges anywhere from 20 to $30,000, that folks are going to want to come in at the higher range. But then I think that's actually an opportunity to be more transparent, as you're going through the interview process with folks to say, Hey, this is our salary range. And in fact, we find that folks who are coming into this job with X years of experience, if that's your indicator, though, I have some flags on that. So invite me back, David, to talk about that!

 

David Turetsky: 22:15

Of course!

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 22:16

I don't use experience as as a metric, but we look at experience, we look at what the person can do. And usually people start in at about the 25th percentile or the 30th percentile. The few occasions where someone does come in starting in the 80th or 90th percentile are when they have XYZ. Based on what we see from you, if you were to get this job, likely it would be in this range. So that way, you're just being transparent and upfront, and folks aren't going in eyes wide open thinking, Oh, the range is this much, I'm going to be at the top of the range, just make it very clear what that criteria is. The problem is so many organizations don't have that criteria. And often it's based on oh, well, this person seems really cool! Or I like how they operate, you know what we really want then without having those indicators outlined, which then has implications for equity and inclusion. So I think naming those and identifying those, and just making it very clear to the candidate as they're moving through the process.

 

David Turetsky: 23:08

We've been creating things called Career frameworks, which show a progression like an engineer one, engineer two, engineer three, what education requirements, what experience requirements come along with that as well, as well as what are the competencies and behavior levels that people need in either way. And if you tie that to the pay, then you're showing someone, here's where we're hiring you. Here's if you get this experience, and you get this education, or you get these other competencies, here's where you go. So to your point, it actually takes people from where they are. And it gives them that roadmap that shows how you can earn more, and where does your career take off? And what range that puts you in at that point. So instead of worrying about how do I get there, it's about what do I need to do in order to gain those skills, competencies, education or experience to be able to get to that level?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 24:01

Now, David, one thing I'll just add, Brandy was talking about made me think of one of the things in our bill, we've added a good faith provision. So that, you know, one of the things we've seen in some other states is the employer will post a range of 10,000 to $100,000. Just to give you a silly, you know, silly example, which is meaningless. And so obviously, we want we want to avoid that situation. So we have added a good faith employer must disclose in good faith, what the salary range is, which we hope will cut down on those types of, you know, silly ranges

 

David Turetsky: 24:28

Well you saw the Netflix example, right, where they posted the flight attendant job, and it was from like, 60,000 to $380,000 base pay. Yeah. Well, well, I mean, the other question I would ask is, are there teeth in the bill to then require, you know, whomever to follow up or fine for things like that when they're not exactly following the letter of the law?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 24:54

There are yeah, David, there are. We we've tried to keep a fine balance here. This isn't designed to be punitive, this is designed to be helpful. And so you know, we have empowered the Attorney General to enforce this.

 

David Turetsky: 25:05

Okay.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 25:05

There are financial penalties for failure to apply for subsequent efforts. The first violation is just a just a warning because again, we're not here to penalize businesses, we're trying to help them to comply. And so it's more focused on the education. But there is some truth to the law that the Attorney General can investigate and find those businesses that willfully and purposefully avoid it.

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 25:27

And then also, just relatedly, there's also protections for employees who do seek to inquire about what the salary range is, whether they just want to know for their own information, or if they're going through the process of promotion within the company, then they can also request it and be protected from any retaliation for making the inquiry.

 

David Turetsky: 25:45

Which is extremely important, because we can't have people who are asking the right questions, and then getting back the Hey, you can't ask that. Which might happen. We know there are people who are stuck in their ways, which shouldn't be. So that's good as well. Let me ask the dumb question. So is there anything else that we didn't cover? Touching on paid transparency that you're hoping H.1849 will help us with?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 26:18

I can't think anything else. Maybe Brandy can.

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 26:21

No, they can't see me, but I took a deep breath, inhale. And I was like running through my mind like, Nope, I think I think we've covered it. So appreciate you, David.

 

David Turetsky: 26:30

Well, I appreciate you both. Thank you very much. Listen, this is a really complex topic, we tried to cover it in a half an hour, I think you both did a very good job. So thank you very much. I really appreciate you putting 1849 out there. And hopefully the Commonwealth will pass it sooner rather than later. And to your point before, there's no reason why companies can't start being transparent today. Please, we encourage you to do it. It's a good thing and it's the right thing for everyone. Any last words?

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 27:02

Thank you. And if for those listeners out there, tell your your state representative to support our legislation and we have a hearing coming up May 9, so that'll be the big first step.

 

David Turetsky: 27:11

So hopefully by that time, this is both passed, and it's law. And we're all celebrating it now. But thank you so much Representative Brandy Fluker Oakley and Representative Josh Cutler from Massachusetts. We really do appreciate you. And again, thank you very much for putting this out there and for being a part of the HR Data Labs podcast.

 

Rep. Josh Cutler: 27:33

Thank you.

 

Rep. Brandy Fluker Oakley: 27:33

Thank you so much.

 

David Turetsky: 27:34

Take care and stay safe.

 

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