Chris Havrilla – HR Tech 2022 Series – HR Technology Has Evolved to Support New Workforce Needs

Connect with Chris:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

 

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Oracle Cloud Human Capital Management
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 8
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 6

• “Productivity went up [in 2022] when employees had more control over data. But now managers are trying to get control back. Why? . . . That means we haven't learned how to manage performance and trust people enough.”
• “That's why democratization of data is so important. At the end of the day, it all comes down to: how are we helping people make informed decisions? [It comes down to] giving them the insights and value so that they can make good decisions and take action.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And viola, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. And as we've been doing so very often we go to these wonderful conferences, and we talk to really brilliant people. And today we're talking to one of the most brilliant people, Chris Havrilla from Oracle. Hello, Chris, how are you?

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:07

Hello, David, I'm great. Please don't set the bar so high that this is going to be a disappointment to everybody!

 

David Turetsky: 1:14

Well people will have heard one of your earlier podcasts with us.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:18

That's right!

 

David Turetsky: 1:19

So they actually have some context for what I mean, they know you're brilliant already.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:24

Third time's the charm.

 

David Turetsky: 1:25

I'm hoping that the first was good enough that you set the bar so high the first time!

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:30

I love it.

 

David Turetsky: 1:31

But Chris, what we're going to talk about today is HR technology 2022 to 2023, some of the things some of the lessons we learned in 2022. And some of the things we're predicting for 2023. But before we get there, why don't you tell people what's actually happening in the world of Chris Havrilla. Because you've made a move since the last time we've spoken to you.

 

Chris Havrilla: 1:52

I have! I have. I moved to Oracle, in my quest to keep taking jobs that I've never had before.

 

David Turetsky: 2:00

And stretching yourself.

 

Chris Havrilla: 2:01

Stretching myself, which is actually a great segue to things we'll talk about later. But yeah, no, I, I was really blessed to have a great opportunity to come and lead product strategy at Oracle and our Oracle Cloud HCM. Specifically around talent, my favorite subject.

 

David Turetsky: 2:19

Your favorite, yeah.

 

Chris Havrilla: 2:20

And and I just thought, you know, I've done this work, right? I've, I've been in HR, I've been in tech, I've been on the vendor side, have been on the consulting side, I've been internal, external, I had this really great opportunity at Deloitte to study the market deeply from a from a vendor perspective, and do research and advisory on and for the vendor community. And same thing on you know, what, what I would call the buy side, right? And everybody who's buying and consuming this tech, what they're buying, why they're buying it, how they're buying it, how they're applying it or not. And and then and then certainly just played advisory from a from a Deloitte perspective, as well, as, you know, how does what are what is what we're seeing in the research and advisory that we're doing? Where do we go next? Where where's the market? And where do they need help? So I loved doing that. But I would really studied everything that I really wanted to study. Things I had hypotheses on, and I really wanted to go somewhere where I could apply it. Right? You know, here's all we've learned, what is it that we can do? How can we work with customers? How can we? It's a really cool role. Like, right? Half of it is internally facing, what's our investment strategy? How do we message it? Who do we partner with? How do we partner with what? You know, what do our customer success people need to know? So there's that internal side of it. And the other side of it is really advocacy, customer advocacy, customer advisory on how they're applying it. So it's a little bit, I kind of liken it to connective tissue between all these really critical parts and parties. And, and really taking the things that I studied and modeled and bring it to life and try to build some showcases of people who are actually doing it right.

 

David Turetsky: 4:01

It's enviable, because I've been on the product management side. I've been on the practitioner side, and, you know, I love all that stuff, too. So you're living, I'm gonna live vicariously through you.

 

Chris Havrilla: 4:12

Living the dream!

 

David Turetsky: 4:13

Yes, you are.

 

Chris Havrilla: 4:13

Right. And it really comes down to like, how do we, how do we harmonize work, workforce, workplace so critical, and the role that data and technology plays is huge! So when you start to think about what is coming, right, it really is how that happens. You know, especially you know, in a world where hybrid work, remote work, deskless workers is this that all the different ways work is getting done, right? And how companies, not just do talent acquisition you can't keep solving all the business problems by just okay, we got to find more people, more people, more people. It's a lot to put on talent acquisition, and that churn, right. And so how do we access talent, in a world where now workers are accessing experiences. They're not on some kind of, you know, lateral like, here I go. And here's the next step and the next step, you know, they're accessing experiences. So how do we kind of do this exchange in a much better way? And harmonize what people are doing when they're doing it, why they're doing it, And if they want to do it! where they're doing it? And if they want to do it.

 

David Turetsky: 5:18

Right, exactly. Yeah. But before we get to all of that, the one thing that no one knows about Chris Havrilla right now?

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:28

Oh, my goodness.

 

David Turetsky: 5:29

You knew I was gonna throw you that curveball!

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:31

I didn't. I actually didn't.

 

David Turetsky: 5:34

You should remember.

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:35

I know

 

David Turetsky: 5:35

We make you do it every time!

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:37

Oh my gosh and I don't remember what I've said in the past.

 

David Turetsky: 5:39

It doesn't matter, that's in the past.

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:41

I will tell you, I will say one thing and I don't know if this is what I've said before. Because you know me and you don't know when I've told you this, but I was on a pit crew when I was young.

 

David Turetsky: 5:50

Yeah, we knew about that one. But you weren't F1? You were?

 

Chris Havrilla: 5:51

Yeah we knew about that one? Well, let me tell you why I love that now, because we're, we're sponsoring F1! So I'm super excited about that. No, I was sports car. Sports Car Racing. But you know, it was the same concept. If you think about it, like, you know, there's like 12 turns you don't know what's coming. It's not like you're going around in circles like NASCAR. Right. You know, so it's still you kind of have to figure out what's coming and when it's coming and why it's coming. And so the actually, tech and data play a huge role there in performance. So anyway, I love that but I played water polo in college.

 

David Turetsky: 6:27

We got that one!

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:28

My daughter works at Disney.

 

David Turetsky: 6:30

We don't have that one.

 

Chris Havrilla: 6:31

My daughter works at Disney and and I have been a Disney freak my whole life. I still, I was there the very first year it opened. And I still go with the same off that I always have. And so she took me to her 50th anniversary, they had parties for all the classmates. And so I got to ride Guardians of the Galaxy and Ratatouille. And I was super excited about that.

 

David Turetsky: 6:59

So I'm extra enviable of Chris Havrilla right now. Yes, because I'm a huge Marvel fan. Love Guardians.

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:05

I loved it. It was amazing. And there's interesting little known facts about that. But anyway, the one cool thing, I will say they have six songs from the 80s. And I'm an 80s girl. Right? So it's fun to keep riding it to get the songs that you want. But I still haven't gotten all six yet. But

 

David Turetsky: 7:25

Okay, some day you let us know.

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:27

Some day!

 

David Turetsky: 7:36

All right, Chris. So now we're gonna put you in the hot seat.

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:37

Okay.

 

David Turetsky: 7:38

So we talked a little bit about this already. But summarize 2022 for what did we experience in the world of HR technology to be able to support as you're talking about those new experiences that those employees had to deal with? From the last three years of the crap they had to go through?

 

Chris Havrilla: 7:54

Right!

 

David Turetsky: 7:55

What did we do in the world of HR technology to support them? And where are we now?

 

Chris Havrilla: 8:01

There's, what did we do? And what should we be doing? Right? And what because what did we learn from all of this? Right? It was fascinating over the last 25 years, right, we've watched technology make little to no impact on productivity. And actually, in some cases, it went down, because people were just lopping on all this tech. Right. And, and it was actually making work harder for people. You know, the systems were the work. I think what was fascinating is right after the pandemic, right, productivity skyrocketed. And then it started to come down again. Right? And I and so I've seen this explosion in experience tech, right, this notion of employee experience, this, you know, notion of skills, you know, how do we leverage the skills we have, like, what, how do we do this better, and I've seen some real traction in, okay, we have to pay attention to this. So we saw this incredible amount of investment in all of this tech over the last three years, and the pain being high enough that people were willing to start looking at technology a little bit different. And it's been fascinating to kind of watch! You know, we went from can't just have one platform, all the way to kind of pure play platforms. And then and now you're seeing the pendulum swing again, because people are realizing how critical data is. And when you're managing interfaces and and and integrations and you're spending all your time doing that or not. Right? People aren't being able to leverage getting, keeping up with the technology

 

David Turetsky: 9:38

Well it becomes more friction!

 

Chris Havrilla: 9:39

It does. And and so you're kind of watching the pendulum swing back, and people looking at how do we maybe it's not a single platform, right, but maybe there is a you know, a more centralized platform approach that will allow people to leverage the data so that we can be getting insights and value to everybody so that they can make better decisions to take action. Because I think that productivity issue, right was all of a sudden workers were in control of the how, right? They knew what they had to do, when they had to do it.

 

David Turetsky: 10:13

And they got it done!

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:14

Why they had to do it, and they got it done. And it and I think it really made us realize, wow, okay, you know, people understand what they've got to do. We are so busy teaching and telling them what to do and how to do it. And the productivity went up, when they had control over that! But what's interesting, David is now everybody's trying to get control back! Everybody come back to the office! Why?

 

David Turetsky: 10:41

Right.

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:42

Why? Because they want to see, you know, that that command and control is the most, because that means we haven't learned how to manage performance. And, and trust people enough.

 

David Turetsky: 10:53

Command and control was a very 50s methodology.

 

Chris Havrilla: 10:57

Totally.

 

David Turetsky: 10:58

And coming out of the war, people were willing to do that. Because it was, we believed in authority! We thought the authority was doing what was best for the company. And then we started telling people, Hey, you have a voice! You can do things. If you have a suggestion, tell us what to do. And so that's come to the 2000s and 2010s. And now 2020s. And now people are actually internalizing this and saying, Hey, I think I can do something better. Hey, can we go do this? And when we were in the office, it was like, oh, no, we can't do that. Because we already do this. But when people were unshackled as it were, they were, they had the ability to be able to take that on. And well, you know, nobody's watching, I'm going to do it this way and see how it goes. And heck, it worked!

 

Chris Havrilla: 11:40

And it worked. And I think, you know, what that shows is that maybe a commitment and collaboration approach is a little bit different. But there's, there are a couple of things that I hear very consistently for people, things still come down to people managers. Right. And, and, and communication. And, and knowing, like, if I know what to do and why to do it, I figure out the how, right?

 

David Turetsky: 12:05

But that's an important point.

 

Chris Havrilla: 12:06

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 12:07

Why is it important? Just communicate with me! Why is it important?

 

Chris Havrilla: 12:11

So I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I'm connected to the work now! Now I know outcomes, not output. Right? I'm focused on outcomes. And I'm the one closest to the work!

 

David Turetsky: 12:22

Right. So if I can connect the tissue a little bit, just don't tell me that I have to do it. Tell me why it's important to do it. And then I might be able to feel a little bit more personalized about it. And maybe I'll want to do it then. Or at least

 

Chris Havrilla: 12:40

And if I don't I'll walk away. But I know now, it's about how do we make informed decisions? Right? And, and so instead of telling people, you know, how. Focus on what, focus on why, right? And I think we've talked about the future of work for so long, we haven't talked about the future of management! What does that look like in this kind of a world when maybe as a manager, you work for that person. Your job is to make sure they know what and why. So they can figure out the how, and that you're removing the obstacles, you're helping them ask better questions, you're helping them solve for it, you know, supporting what they need, and why they need it. And I just think that's, you know, not new news. We knew that managers had a huge impact on employee engagement. But what we didn't do is all these top down approaches, right didn't always net, the wow is like, we know that these people are impacting experience, there's a 70% variance, right, or a 70%. Like, I don't know what the right word is. But when you like a manager, and that relationship with that employee that is impacted. And to that degree, like they can have that big of a difference, a big of a variance in that person's experience. But if you're not holding people accountable to that? You're trying to do a top down approach, and get everybody to do a one size fits all thing that's gonna struggle, and it has!

 

David Turetsky: 14:14

And I think that comes down to that manager understanding the things that connect to the employee in ways in which they can get the best of the employee.

 

Chris Havrilla: 14:23

And sometimes all they have to do is ask.

 

David Turetsky: 14:26

Wait wait, I'm sorry, that was a three letter word starts with a can you say that again?

 

Chris Havrilla: 14:30

Be asked!

 

David Turetsky: 14:31

Ask? So they have to communicate!

 

Chris Havrilla: 14:35

That's right. And it's really interesting, you know, we've seen this change, right? Of work kind of becoming more of a marketplace. Oh, you know, we've got organizations who have enterprise needs and they have work to be done. They don't always know what that work is. Right? We have people inherently looking for experiences and seeking experiences. That's why they were doing you know side gigs and side hussles, side of desk work and, and all of these things they were trying to fill, you know, maybe a need to contribute, to have an impact, have some control over their own, you know, agency over their own world. Right. So, you know, I do think it's been there's been this explosion of tech to support that notion. But we're all still thinking about jobs and roles, where we need to start thinking more around skills. And, and it's hard because maybe for a long time, even as a worker, you've identified as a certain role or, you know, type, you know, types of jobs that you've done. Same thing with HR, same thing with business leaders, but this interesting notion of employee and worker experiences come into this. And and I just don't think people know, it's such a broad topic, what does this actually mean? At a personalized level? Right? How do you actually do those things? And it's been really fun to try to think about how do we scale employee experience? Right, I think that there's different approaches to marketplaces, whether it's internal mobility, or or, you know, kind of developmental, you know, flexible approaches or even if it's like a full brokerage, right? But then there's also this notion of people first leadership. And I think, instead of talking complete HR tech, right? It's like, what, how is this employee centric tech? Right? And, and that's been the fun thing for me, as somebody who studied the tech space, but now in the, you know, back into the vendor space of okay, how do we develop products? What is our product strategy to do exactly that, to help encourage people first, right, and management and leadership, and also employee centric tech, which is really, you know, know me, see me, communicate with me, help me, right?

 

Announcer: 16:53

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David Turetsky: 17:04

Let me ask you a stupid question, though. Maybe you're gonna say it's not stupid. But I think it is a little bit. Why aren't we also considering the fact that it's not necessarily about the employee anymore as a unit of measurement, but a person who's providing skills to the organization? They may not be a W2, and I'm considering that employees what we consider a W2 nowadays.

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:26

Yes, that's fair.

 

David Turetsky: 17:28

Maybe an employee should really be a 1099.

 

Chris Havrilla: 17:31

Right.

 

David Turetsky: 17:31

Or should be a Fiverr or a, you know, name another company where they do, you know, gig work, where you're hiring them for their skill for a period of time you need them. And then you let them go. We used to worry in the world of knowledge worker that the intellectual property was walking out the door. But aren't we also now in a world where, look, there's no more, you know, caveat or, or agreement between an employee and an employer that they're going to manage me and keep me and grow me in? And I'm gonna have a job tomorrow

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:08

Or if I want them to!

 

David Turetsky: 18:10

Well, yeah, but that's exactly it. But because there's no contract there. That person can get let go at a moment's notice. So why wouldn't that person then because they may say, I may not work, want to work there tomorrow, then want to work differently? And maybe say, hey, why don't I work for you today? And maybe work for them tomorrow? And not have to worry about it?

 

Chris Havrilla: 18:30

Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think it's I think it's exactly what we have to face. Right. And that's why I keep talking about that notion of work as a marketplace and exchange. And, you know, I don't want to not, this isn't intended to not humanize, it's actually intended to humanize, right, workers. So even machines are workers in our workforce now, right? And so why can't we just acknowledge that and realize that, that's why skills and capabilities are so important. Whether that machine is a worker, whether it's a part time, whether it's contingent, whether it's a full time employee, whatever it is, but we have been making decisions based on jobs and roles, and not on skills and capabilities. And all of these workers have different skills and capabilities.

 

David Turetsky: 19:13

Exactly.

 

Chris Havrilla: 19:14

And maybe for different time periods or different structures.

 

David Turetsky: 19:16

Exactly. So why don't we try and find an erg, or whatever the word is, what's the unit of productivity and then compensate based on the unit of productivity, instead of trying to figure out, and I'm saying this as Salary.com employee and, you know, we deal with compensation of employees, but why don't we deal with the compensation of productivity, then? Well, why can't we see that as being something so freeing that we're paid for the erg?

 

Chris Havrilla: 19:42

And I do I think that we absolutely can and maybe it's not a measure of productivity, maybe it's a measure of outcomes. And, but I do think we've got to learn especially like, I mean, either especially where you are right now as at Salary.com. How do we put a value on skills, right? How do we how do we actually like, because that may be valued at one organization even different from another? Right? So how do we maybe put Unit of Measures around that? And then, you know, how do we bring insights and values so that we can connect skills and capabilities to work that needs to get done. But people have to know what the work is, which is what I think is kind of fascinating around this notion of, of. You know, look, most people I have, I have work to be done right now. And I probably can't get headcount for it. Right. But I still have work that needs to be done. So if I can start thinking in terms of that, and using this notion of gigs, you know, and stretch assignments and projects, we all have side of desk projects, right?

 

David Turetsky: 20:47

Right.

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:47

But there's no visibility into that!

 

David Turetsky: 20:50

No, none.

 

Chris Havrilla: 20:51

But I think now with this kind of notion of like opportunity marketplaces and things like that, where you have, you know, like, like with our software, you can actually put work out there and say, I need this done. And somebody can opt in and use that to develop skills and, or interests or feed things that they do. And then we're learning now we can start to have visibility into the work and the skills too, right?

 

David Turetsky: 21:14

And that becomes part of your record, it becomes part of what you've done. And then at the end of the year, your W2 reflects some of the improvement of that based on that work. But I mean, for many organizations that don't have access to that, they have to go to the Fiverrs or they have to, you know, do Uber or Lyft, to be able to supplement or complement based on those are the marketplaces for which they can find that extra work and do those gigs.

 

Chris Havrilla: 21:42

And it's cool. That's why those three approaches I was talking about to a marketplace is really, really critical, because those are entry points into how we start to think about this as organizations, but also as workers. Right? Like, I mean, there's, you know, and I think we're where we're seeing most people kind of skating the edges, this notion of internal mobility, and it's about worker mobility, right? But it's very internal focused, you know, it's second approach is really kind of that developmental approach. It's more about worker agility, but it's still internally focused. But that notion of what I would call a brokerage marketplace, is now where you can start to say, these are the enterprise needs we have. And here's how I connect to all these talent pools, you know, of, of workers, where we can actually do a full exchange for these enterprises.

 

David Turetsky: 22:26

But those have mostly been invisible today, right? They've mostly been invisible inside the workplace today, maybe some managers had some ideas of things they wanted to accomplish, and they'd have them on the back of a napkin. But but there is no visibility to that unless you have a role, a requisition that's created, and it's put online.

 

Chris Havrilla: 22:42

But it doesn't have to be that way. That's why that opportunity marketplace notion is good, because you could just put work out there. Now we're starting to give visibility into the work. Because maybe I couldn't get full headcount, but now I have visibility into the work. And we can be learning from that.

 

David Turetsky: 22:58

And people can raise their hand.

 

Chris Havrilla: 23:00

And we can tie skills to that, people can raise their hand, we can be developing people, we can be getting visibility into all these side of desk projects, and how they might be developing people and give people more opportunities.

 

David Turetsky: 23:13

And that's really measuring the value of the employee to the organization, as well is managing as well as at least having some visibility to the productivity as well.

 

Chris Havrilla: 23:23

Yep. And what skills it took to get that work done.

 

David Turetsky: 23:27

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLconsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So Chris, stupid question, then. Is that a 2022? Or are we now talking about what might come in 2023? Because what we're trying to do is discuss what is your prognostication for what is coming in 2023? It's not that far away. It's only three months away. But what's coming in 2023?

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:11

The tech is here, right? The tech is here, but now. It's how that tech gets applied. And that's where I think we're going. I think there's a realization, you know, you can see it in the interests in how people are thinking about it, the notion of talking about skilling period, right? Upskilling, reskilling, you know, how we need to know what the skills are of our organization. So there's a there's a realization that we need to start to capture this, that we need to start to do this.

 

David Turetsky: 24:40

And then skills become the currency, by the way.

 

Chris Havrilla: 24:42

It is, it really is. It's a building blocks of these new work models that we're talking about. Right? It isn't going to be just jobs and roles there that will have a function there. But because we've been making all these business and talent decisions based on jobs and roles solely, you know, how do we start to do that transition so we can do. So I think the tech is there. I know because we have it, right? I know, because I studied the market prior to this. The tech is out there. You can walk this, you know, show floor right now No, it definitely needs a Rosetta Stone, or it needs and see that, right? But you also have to know, because skills might be that new currency. It you have to be smart and intentional about what you're doing, how you're collecting it. You know, how, if you're going to lay AI down on stuff like that, because it's coming from different places coming from your learning systems, your talent acquisition system, your talent management systems, maybe your experience, whatever. So you got to still be smart about your tech stack, right? Because if everything is being done through interfaces and integrations and things like that, that that something it's not possible that it makes it much more complex. something to be able to bring the data together. Yeah. But we've got to start collecting it first and foremost. And I think that's what we're going to start to see in 2023, and 2024, is how companies are starting to do that. And then there's, of course, with that technology that could give insights and value on all this coming from these years, because this is sitting at the intersection of all of these systems, right? So how do we, you know, we've got to capture the data first, before we can start to be smart about it, and put that technology over all of it to start getting insights of value for the different people. Right? For the workers? Give them insights of value because they're making their own decisions. Give it to HR, give it to managers, give it to leaders.

 

David Turetsky: 26:33

Well, to go a couple steps back, though, as you said, the democratization of this data is required because the players are acting differently now.

 

Chris Havrilla: 26:43

That's right.

 

David Turetsky: 26:44

The people are being given options as to do they want to take these alternative gigs inside their own organization, may be short term, maybe longer term, who knows. But they're given it based on the skills that they have, or that at least they've said that they're interested in, or they might have, and then growing them. So it behooves us to democratize that data to make sure managers have it, to make sure HR practitioner, workers, yep, the workers, everybody. And at some point, we also have to talk about the diversity of skills, diversity of knowledge, the diversity of the people in that, so that we're not only bringing skills, but we're also bringing different perspectives as well.

 

Chris Havrilla: 27:26

The key thing is this lack of there's this notion of how do we do that from a commitment and collaboration standpoint, and not a command and control? And that's why democratization of this data is so important, because at the end of the day, this all comes down to how are we helping people make informed decisions, right, giving them the insights of value so that they can make good decisions, take action, right and releasing that control. But if we keep people focused on outcomes, not output, not what I think you should be doing, but giving people that agency, and but giving them that ability to do it intelligently with insights and value they may not have had on their own.

 

David Turetsky: 28:07

And it gives them the opportunity to be able to make better decisions about their lives, about their well being, about their families, which is what has been stressing them out.

 

Chris Havrilla: 28:15

Exactly.

 

David Turetsky: 28:16

And in COVID. And the pandemic, for the last two and a half years, has kind of made that a really gigantic focus. Like it should have been all along.

 

Chris Havrilla: 28:26

It should have been. They took the power back. Right? But let's help them with that. Right? We can't keep fighting it. Let's help them with that. Let's help HR, let's help these managers, let's help leaders, let's help these workers. Right? And if we can all stay focused on outcomes, again, not output and me trying to control how somebody does something. Let me I mean, think about this notion of a people first, you know, people first leadership, right? It's, it's a high empathy, high accountability type of model. So it's okay to hold people accountable, hold them accountable to outcomes, not process, you know, linear

 

David Turetsky: 29:10

Not micromanaging.

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:11

Linear, you know, influid kind of inflexible steps.

 

David Turetsky: 29:25

And I think that's a beautiful place to end.

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:26

Love it.

 

David Turetsky: 29:27

Because what you painted the picture is what happened in 2022. What we're hoping happens in 2023. And as you said, the technology's here,

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:37

it is!

 

David Turetsky: 29:38

can we leverage it? And can we embrace it?

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:40

And how do we work with our partners to do it, right, and to hold everybody accountable to outcomes, right? This is this is the vision so how do we do this and how do we do it together?

 

David Turetsky: 29:50

Chris Havrilla, as I said, brilliant person. Every word I hung on. Thank you so much.

 

Chris Havrilla: 29:57

Thank you. Always a pleasure.

 

David Turetsky: 29:59

Thank you. And thank you for being here. And thank you for listening, take care and stay safe.

 

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