HR Tech 2021 Series – Recruiting Metrics & Performance: Past, Present, & Future

Connect with Tim:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com 

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

Resources:

• HRU
• HR Data Labs Season 3 Episode 2
• HR Data Labs Season 2 Episode 25

• “All of our funnels, individually and as a team, are all transparent. And if there’s a recruiter that had a bad week, or if there’s a recruiter that decided to sluff off or whatever, well it shows. And it’s not meant to be like a stressor, it’s meant to [communicate], “Hey, understand if someone’s being successful, take a look at why.” There’s no magic, you know, or secret sauce.”
• “The “great resignation,” I think, is a misnomer. It’s really just a great reshuffle, and people aren’t leaving to leave. We’ll see stories in media like, “Oh, Mary left and she’s going to take a break for a year, blah, blah, blah. You know, cause work’s changed.” And I’m like, okay, but the reality is people are resigning from your company because you’re not paying them enough. And somebody else is going to pay them more.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here’s an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what’s happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila! You get the HR data labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here’s your host, David Turetsky.

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR data labs podcast. I’m your host, David Turetsky. And like always, we try to bring new fascinating people inside and outside the world of human resources to bring new context and insight into HR data analytics and technology and what’s actually happening in the world today. And what we think might actually happen in the future. Today we have with us, Tim Sackett. How you doing Tim?

Tim Sackett: 1:05

I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.

David Turetsky: 1:07

Thank you for joining. And we have our friend, Dwight Brown. How are you?

Dwight Brown: 1:12

Good, how you doing?

David Turetsky: 1:13

I’m tired.

Tim Sackett: 1:16

So we’re at the HR tech welcome!

David Turetsky: 1:18

And whether it’s like a COVID, you know, HR Technology Conference, or whether it’s HR technology conference from three years ago or two years ago when there were 1000s of people here. Yeah. You always run around like a nutcase. And so

Tim Sackett: 1:32

every every single year, yeah, a lot of people have said, like, I’m just not in shape for this, because there is a conference kind of shape you have. And it’s part like sleep deprivation, alcohol consumption, and also nonstop conversation. Right? So you, you’re constantly on. Yeah. And then you’re constantly lacking asleep. Yeah. And then all then there’s way too much alcohol in the evening with like, cocktail parties and dinners. And like, there’s this kind of like weird consumption that you would normally just No, don’t do. Yeah.

David Turetsky: 2:03

So it was really funny how I met. So for a lot of us, we introduce ourselves to people on LinkedIn. One of the funny reasons why I think Tim is gonna be an awesome guest for the HR Data Labs podcast is we’ve been on LinkedIn, because Tim was asking a totally innocuous question about the things that you would discount you might take or the reduction in pay you might take if you were able to stay at home. Yeah. And the venom. Only three choices.

Tim Sackett: 2:34

It gives you like 4. And so I was Yeah. And so it was basically like started at like 20%. And then like 10, or five to 15 and zero to five, and then like or whatever. Or, you know, I can’t even remember the four options, but one of them wasn’t a pay increase. Like it was a hot point right away. Like, if I’m going to work from home, I better get a pay increase. Now, first and foremost, like this, I found a ton of economists online, like I just find this stuff fascinating. Like I always like wish, like I have three sons two that are in college or two that graduated college, one that said about going into, and I always begged them to be an economist, and there’s looking like, I can’t think of anything more boring. I’m like, No, I love economists. I like like all the data and all the like, you know, the insights I get. And so I there’s an economist did this study, and it’s 1000s of people, I just said, Hey, the value that you plays on working from home, what does that work? How much would you take less pay?

David Turetsky: 3:27

An innocuous question.

Tim Sackett: 3:28

That’s it totally wasn’t saying you should pay people less to write. And that’s not what my thing was, either.

David Turetsky: 3:34

But it was almost as if you said you shot Kennedy. Oh, it’s like, or I supported the

Tim Sackett: 3:40

Hundreds of 1000s of people viewed it. Hundreds. I mean, it just continues to go right. Like, I will go back out there like, like, it’s exponentially just go in. And I’ve been called everything it made people like like truly and I, I even tried to explain like, look, this is not my study, I’m just placing this out there as a conversation point to say, interesting concept. Because I do think so many, especially people who desperately want to work from home or are working from home and don’t want to go back to the office. They do place a high value. I mean, the comments alone show how high value it is because they’re so passionate. But like that they can can’t conceptually understand that that’s what that exercise is there’s just no value, because they all want to the argument is, well, if I’m not in the office, and you’re not having to pay office space, then you should pay me more. Right. I don’t disagree with that. I think you’re right, there’s

David Turetsky: 4:39

Okay, well, so I think what’s going to happen, it’s actually one of the things that we’re going to talk about today, which is recruiting and recruiting metrics and the recruiter performance. We will I think one of those topics will actually have to come up inside of that. But one fun thing that we do on this podcast is in humanizing all of our guests CEOs, CHROs people who implement analytics We talk about one thing that no one knows about. Yeah, what’s one thing that no one knows about?

Tim Sackett: 5:06

Me? I’ve been writing my blog every day for over 10 years. So I always try to, like, there’s probably nothing that people don’t know about me. Very transparent. Well, yeah, I have my, my, my wife and I only have like one kind of rule. And then my wife put that on me, which was you can never blog about me.

David Turetsky: 5:23

And now you’re podcasting about her.

Tim Sackett: 5:27

Oh, yeah. She never said that, though. That’s like new stuff, right? So she’s gonna re up that. And so once in a while, if it’s a very positive kind of thing I might mention, like, you know, my wife or something like that. But it’s very rare that you will ever see or know, right? I’ll talk about my boy, you know, but she was just like, I don’t want to be a topic of conversation on your ball. So they understand.

David Turetsky: 5:55

We evaluate that contract. Oh, please don’t get in a war. Right, so the topic is really cool. Today, what we want to talk about what you’ve asked us to talk about is recruiting and recruiting metrics and the driving performance of the recruiter. Yeah. And so the first question I want to ask you is we’ve been asking a lot of people at conferences. Let’s talk about the past first, before we talk about what’s happening now in the future. In the past, we talked about recruiter performance, it was really kind of easy. We were talking about number of requisitions, number of hires, time to fill recruiter efficiency things. Yeah, to some extent that’s still happening. What was the past? What were the things that used to see that recruiter?

Tim Sackett: 6:49

Yeah, it’s one of the problems because I will say even I think agency recruiting that’s completely different. And they’ve always done a really good job of just flat out measuring activity, right? And you would think, then, that corporate talent acquisition would take totally take off on that and say, hey, you need to do this, but they don’t. They do these weird metrics like days to fill, which again, I could argue, and I will argue that it’s the worst recruiting metric of all time, but days to fill, well, days to fill literally measures nothing. Because just because you filled something at 26 days versus 27 days, doesn’t mean you actually made a better hire. It doesn’t mean that person’s gonna perform better, by the way you might have. But by the way, 26 days might be too fast. Maybe it shouldn’t 33 days, like that’s how innocuous that measure is like it’s so crazy that we actually use it as a primary measure for talent acquisition success. Exactly. And so that’s been a past thing, right? And then when you take a look at actual actual corporate talent, acquisition, individual recruiting metrics, it’s rare that we ever get anything from them on an individual side, hiring manager or manager satisfaction. You can be the worst recruiter in the world, but you are great at making relationships, and not the hiring manager like Oh, my I love Tim. You’re like, oh, is this Tim fill your positions? No. But I love Tim. Again, no correlation. Phillies games, yeah, no correlation to success. And then the other one that we tend to use historically is quality of hire. Which, again, the quality of hire has nothing to do with the recruiter, recruiter goes out, takes a job, post job sources, candidates, find candidates, send them to a hiring manager, who then has to make a selection. So quality of hire then is really a measure about the performance of the individual you selected. Recruiting selected that person.

David Turetsky: 8:35

It’s also very subjective.

Tim Sackett: 8:36

Or it doesn’t have to be you could like if you really do qualify, right, you would actually hire this person at a year or six months, like you would actually measure performance, versus the person that was in the position prior right? Now you’re like going, sure, okay, let’s like a real let’s really look at quality. But now, you could say quality of applicant, which is then hey, if I send an applicant to a hiring manager, did they actually interview did they select it? Now you’re measuring a little bit different there for quality of applicant, but we tend to do quality of hire. And here’s what the almost everybody does is for quality of hire, which is, is the person still there after 90 days?

David Turetsky: 9:10

That’s the difference in statistics too. I mean, new hire turnover rate is one of the things that I usually talk a lot to clients about.

Tim Sackett: 9:16

That’s that but you can’t measure quality of hire, because someone’s day, 90 days, no, no, no correlation or actual quality, right?

David Turetsky: 9:22

No, it also may be cultural fit. And maybe the person, you know, just didn’t get sold the right job.

Tim Sackett: 9:27

And I have worked with in organizations where that was the measure in hiring managers had that on their dashboard. And so they would just wait for someone to get 90 days and then they would fire me after. So they’re like, yep, hit that thing. I get my bonus. By the way, 93 days, you’re gone because you’re worthless.

David Turetsky: 9:45

And I think one of the things that we’re trying to do is we’re trying to find the right people for the right job at the right time, and make sure that they’re successful not just now but in the future. So what are the right metrics then what should they have been focusing on in the past with the right work?

Tim Sackett: 10:00

Yeah, well, I mean, I will give a shout out to Jerome, the CEO of SmartRecruiters. There’s one that he put together in his book, which is like hiring velocity, which I really love. I think it’s, it’s a days to fill type of metric, but in the right way where you go to a hiring manager, and you go, Okay, we, here’s the req, here’s what we have to find candidates, you know, a whatever, when do we need to fill this position by, of course, I’ll go yesterday. That’s really funny. But if I actually go source and post person interview, and the person gives two weeks and blah, blah, blah, like, obviously, you start to build this timeline, right? And so let’s say that timeline is eight weeks is the best case scenario, do we want to give ourselves a little bit of cushion, maybe nine weeks, whatever that might be? Everyone’s gonna be different, right? So then your hiring velocity date is that nine week date. So you’re like, hey, December 15, I need to fill this position by and then what happens is, you have a plus minus time to fill it before that time, I feel it after that time, by the way, that the hiring manager and I are now into this together, we’ve just engaged and contracted a date. So I’m going to go out and source and I’m going to go out and find but by the way, you have to interview as well, we we had the clock is ticking. And so to me, that because that that’s a better prescription for like a better recruiter, a search from a relationship standpoint, at the very least, right? Because you have to kind of work towards this. I love that that one, I’m still a giant fan of the funnel metrics on activity because I, I can take a look at 15 years worth of data, my own shop and go, Hey, by the way, in here’s where I think a lot of corporate ta leaders fail is that they don’t really push the funnel. They think it’s a little micromanaging. But and I go, Hey, this isn’t about a hammer. This is about development, if I have a recruiter who’s great at finding talent, but then when they’re hiring managers not carrying any of them. There’s really no way I know where the issue is, okay, it’s in your quality of candidate or there’s a hiring manager that has like a way out view of what they really want, right there.

David Turetsky: 11:56

They need to make the requirements better,

Tim Sackett: 12:00

But instantly, you can you can see by the ratios, right then the funnel, what’s falling down, and then I can go and help my recruiter I can help I can like actually develop, right? It’s not a hammer, is it development tool. The other piece is if I’m a corporate ta leader, and my CEO comes and says, hey, guess what, oh my gosh, we just signed this big contract. next quarter, we’re gonna have to hire 1000, most ta leaders will say, Great, we’ll work harder, more 24/7 will get it done and they fail. Instead of going, Hey, by the way, I can tell you right now our capacity is 480. You said you want 1000? We could not make 1000 happen with what we have. But based on all of our data that we’ve collected, here’s what I need, I need x number of recruiters, I need x more recruitment marketing job advertising dollars, I mean, whatever, whenever we have to do, but you do not sign up for the 1000.

David Turetsky: 12:48

Right? Or you say we can hire RPO resources. Exactly. enable us.

Tim Sackett: 12:54

Exactly. We have all those follows tool you that

David Turetsky: 12:54

Is your date fungible? es.

Tim Sackett: 12:59

Yeah. Like those conversations, I think what we see when a TA leader really has those conversations with the CEO, instantly, they’re elevated to like a CFO level type of thinking, right, which is, we’re making decisions based on data not based on feel and heart and hard work harder. Working harder is not a TA strategy. And yet so often, that’s what I see ta leaders doing.

David Turetsky: 13:22

But they’re also business processes. Hiring 1000 people is a business function. Yeah, it’s creating a business out of nothing. And you can’t give that much pressure to a TA unless they’re brought into the entirety of the workforce planning process, you know, isn’t third quarter or fourth quarter you have to do this is a win. Okay, so the fourth quarter, great. Let’s get all the leaders together to talk about the structure, how we’re doing this, are we going to change our skill profiles? Are the job descriptions all there? There’s so much stuff that has to back up exactly. And so having the metrics along the way, to your point, creates that basically, the business process or, or the business plan, yeah, to get to happen. And you’re right, the elevation of that ta leader to the board and HRM HR CHRO to get that into that process and help the workforce planning process.

Tim Sackett: 14:12

Yeah, I know. I do. I do consulting with like, enterprise level TA people. And a lot of times I’ll hear that the conversation was like, Well, my CEO forced us to use a headhunting firm. And like, sit down with the CEO, without the TA leader in the room. There’s, I just don’t trust that they can get it done. This is a super important position for us. We have to get this done. And so you’re going outside to somebody that you think has better expertise than you have inside.

David Turetsky: 14:38

Why wouldn’t they just tell the TA?

Tim Sackett: 14:40

Well that yeah, that becomes Yeah, there they always have like beat around the bush like, Oh, I know this. I know Johnny over at Spencer Stewart right back in the day. I literally had this happen when I was running TA at a health system. I had just gotten hired it and like kind of gotten landed on my lap like this chief nursing officer retainer search that Our CEO had signed and was getting ready to sign again. So for a year they hadn’t signed didn’t didn’t find anybody. And now they’re gonna re-up. And I said no. And the guy, the retained search firm went above my head and wanted to see it offset to get to the call, you know, and I’m, like, look like, he’s like, Tim, like, Hey, you’re new here, like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I said, I said, go give me 30 days. And if I don’t, if I can’t find your person in 30 days, then, you know, he’s like, Who is this kid? Right? We’ve been looking for a year, right? And so we went through the process, and we got some candidates. And in and I’m like, Look, we’re not that this is not, I have a team and I have people that we will actually make this happen like, you know, in whether you’re if I’m, if you’re going to tell me that you’re going to spend 150 grand a year for nothing, and then another 150 grand, that’s 300 grand, I can get three great recruiters that will produce more. Like stop the madness.

David Turetsky: 15:59

I think a lot of times people forget the fact. And it’s really easy to stay sick these days to do this. But talent acquisition, it’s very much a data driven process. And it gets lost because it has a lot of relationships, Talent Acquisition has a lot of relationships that are built up across networks, not just like, you know, the old networks that used to exist where you can find talent with someone do something with someone. But there’s so much data probably too much. There’s the job boards, there’s LinkedIn, there’s glass door, there’s a lot of things and the competition for what’s noise, versus what’s real. The skills are the job description users, the people, with so many people on the look for real jobs, with so many people who are so confused about compensation. They’re so confused about the great resignation, and white or whatever.

Announcer: 16:49

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David Turetsky: 17:01

Let’s transition from the past to how it people keeping all of this all in order to, and recruiters especially, how are they putting this all in order to be able to make better decisions with all this data around?

Tim Sackett: 17:14

Yeah, well, I mean, we even here in HR Tech, we see a ton of middleware coming into the market, right? That is, basically, I mean, the average enterprise team stack is gonna have 20 to 25 different pieces of technology, even if you have Workday, right? Which is like one system like, yeah, it’s it’s one system, but then you have to add in all this other stuff to actually make it work. So on average, if you have 25 pieces of technology of 25 data sources, there has to be an entire bi middleware stack that’s going to pull all of that stuff in and actually give you the insights you need. Right. And we that’s like one of the biggest growth areas in TA right now.

David Turetsky: 17:52

A lot of the clients we speak to though, that one of their fundamental problems is their underlying demographic data is terrible on the employee side. Yeah, forget about the applicants or the the job, job description, job offer, it’s awful, and not having the skill taxonomy or job taxonomies. And the descriptions are like ancient. Even for newer companies, the descriptions aren’t aren’t in a place where he won’t even put them on the web. Yeah. So how do we get started?

Tim Sackett: 18:20

I mean, I do think AI is going to have a big influence on this, especially when it comes to the internal mobility side, I think we’re gonna start to see like right now, like the, the evolution of how AI is impacting HRT across the board, is just infancy. I mean, you know, when you go out there, and you take a look at some of those technologies and the ability, like there’s podcast software right now, where you can literally I could actually talk for I can read two paragraphs, and basically then just give them an overline of what I want to talk about in text in the AI would actually in my voice, build the entire podcast,

David Turetsky: 18:52

This is a beautiful technology.

Tim Sackett: 18:56

But so if you imagine like job descriptions and all that, there’s, I mean, I foresee a time in the near future where an HR person will never ever write another job description. They will review, they will make some adjustments, right? But the reality is, is you’re gonna have AI that will write that 1000 times better in a voice that is the less biased, you know, than what we were writing ourselves, you know,

David Turetsky: 19:20

But but I hope in the future, those taxonomies that already exist become common, just like own that, and, and the SSCs and all the other taxonomies that the government were pushing a long time ago, that they all come together and we speak one language.

Tim Sackett: 19:36

So that’s kind of the blockchain recruiting, right? Like I had a company reach out and we’re like, Hey, can you do a webcast on the blockchain in recruiting? I’m like, just not really a webcast. That’s kind of a like a sentence we could talk about, like, it’s not really there. But I think we all foresee a future where, hey, if I had one profile of my work life professionally, I had it not just my resume kind of experiences, but I had in my performance data and I had in like all my projects I’ve worked on. I had peer reviews. And I’m now carrying that profile with me from job to job job in a blockchain way. That is, that is it that’s about that verified and valid. Now, the people who love that are people who have worked their butts off and the people who hate that, are the slackers. Yeah, worked for a crappy company, crappy boss, someone that was like, that was racist or gender or whatever. I mean, all those things. Right, right.

David Turetsky: 20:34

But but I think the other problem is, the think I think you’re highlighting is transparency. The ability for us as HR to get out of the silos and get out of the crap war. Everything has to be quiet. Everything has to be hush, hush. I can’t tell you how many times when I work for Morgan Stanley a compensation. I had to tell people if you talk about compensation, you’re fired. Yeah. And they said to me, What are you talking about? It’s my compensation. I said, No, it’s between you and Morgan Stanley, (Sorry Morgan Stanley). But they said, You know, it’s part of between you and a bank?

Tim Sackett: 21:00

Well, yes. That yeah, it’s every company is that way, right? When they I mean, so that was one of those things that you just did. And then all of a sudden, these sites come up? And then everyone knows everybody. Yeah.

David Turetsky: 21:09

Yeah, but but but that culture still exists in some company, for sure. And then you have the others that you know, Zappos who said, you know, everything’s free. Everything’s open, let the data go.

Tim Sackett: 21:21

Speaking of transparency, day, like in my own recruiting shop, we like all of our funnels, individually, as a team are all transparent. That’s great. So notes, but any recruiter that when we come to like our weekly meetings, and team meetings and client meetings, and all this, we’re bringing all of our data, and if there’s a recruiter that had a bad week, or there’s a recruiter that decided to slough off or whatever, well, it it just shows, right. And it’s not meant to be like a stressor, it’s meant to be, hey, I understand if someone’s being successful. Take a look at why I mean, it’s not there’s no magic, you know, kind of secret sauce. I mean, when we have a recruiter that’s failing, and we go and say, hey, you know, for a month, let’s increase the activity by 20%. Magically, they become really good again. And you’re just kind of like, and, and I, even my own team, which knows this, and we have a really tenured team that stays around. And though it’s not about quantity, it’s about quality. You know, it’s about Bo. I mean, there, it depends on what you want to live, but it’s both. It’s not one or the other. You as a recruiter, you should never send an awful candidate. Why would you ever do that? At the same time, there is a level of activity you have to send. And that when we talk about recruiter performance, like right now everyone’s begging for talent. And when I go in, I talk to ta leaders, there’s usually two, well, I would say three common things that will always happen. One is the potentially they’re not using their technology, which is common. But then when I replace it, I want to replace my tech because our recruiters only using 30% of the ATS. Oh, what do you want to get? Oh, that ATS so you can use 30% of that one? Like, can we first get him to use 100% of it? And then let’s talk about it. Right? So there’s admit to mistakes? Yes. It’s, and then the second thing is just flat out, like the lack of funding for job advertising. Turns out marketing works. Yeah. But they do so little of it. Because they still 90% of the shops, I run into our post and pray. We post a job we pray for somebody apply. And that’s our entire recruitment marketing strategy.

David Turetsky: 23:20

Tim, let me ask you a question, though, about that. There’s so much supply, right? There’s so much supply. And obviously, there’s so much demand, you would think that the level of activity was high anyways, because there’s so many people leaving, and they’re looking for something else doing it for something new and fresh. They think the grass is even greener. Yeah. reality right now because of what’s happening.

Tim Sackett: 23:40

Yeah, the Great Resignation I think is a misnomer. It’s a really it’s a great reshuffle and people aren’t leaving to leave. They’re like you see the stories, right? And you get like Oh, Mary left, and she’s gonna take a break for a year blah, blah, you know, cuz works changed, you know? And I’m like, okay, but the reality is, is people are resigning from your company, because you’re not paying them enough and somebody else is going to pay them more.

David Turetsky: 24:00

We’ve definitely seen compensation pressure, that’s true.

Tim Sackett: 24:03

You think about like the last few decades, like Like before, like, the last two years. Every time you talk to somebody about like, why they why they stay at a company, why do they have tenure? So is you don’t leave a company, you leave a boss or you don’t need all this crap that we’ve been throwing at people non stop. Well, you know, all those studies came from was, hey, if we take compensation away, that’s equal. Now what’s the most important thing? Oh, being challenged at work working for a great boss, blah, blah? Well, it turns out pay matters though. If you if you say hey, I’m making 50 But you’ll pay me 70 Guess what? I don’t care if that boss is a little crappy over there. 20 K’s a lot.

David Turetsky: 24:38

Yeah. But the why is that they start looking. They come back from a meeting where they’re pissed off. It’s not that they look through there’s nowhere where, I take that back. More and more jobs are being advertised with comp. But in the past jobs weren’t advertised with comp. Or you know, I don’t know, you’re in recruiting you tell me you know, is comp more prevalent on on reqs now.

Tim Sackett: 24:59

It should be because all of our data shows that when we do A B testing on job posting, so once with comp always get more applicants.

David Turetsky: 25:06

So if I have a crappy day at work, and I start looking at LinkedIn or Indeed or whomever see more of that, yeah, but but the reason I did it isn’t because my comp sucks. No, it’s because something happened I had a bad conversation with my boss says, you know, yeah, but I don’t

Tim Sackett: 25:19

Yeah but I think that’s I don’t think that’s all

David Turetsky: 25:20

But that’s what we’re hearing now. We’re talking that right now. I think there’s a lot of this where people are, it’s a snowball effect, where you’re like, holy crap Johnny just got a new job and got a 25 increase, I gotta start working, you know, and companies are gonna have to make some real big comp adjustments to like, keep their people just say, we’re taking that off the board. We’re a great place to work. to a lot of companies who are saying, Look, we haven’t changed our ranges in a long time. We need help. Yeah. And then, you know, last year, everybody took a pause. I mean, a lot of the comp stuff stayed silent. So they’re looking into going well, it’s been four or five years since we did any structural change. Let’s do it. Now. We’re seeing this a lot in the small midsize companies, not the large as much because they do have stuff internally. But yeah, we’re hearing a lot from small and midsize on that.

Tim Sackett: 26:05

Yeah I agree. That the third thing that I see no, there’s just no, I mean, just to get back to that, because I mean, sure someone’s going wait, you said three. No, it’s flat out recruiter performance is we have ta leaders that refuse to measure the performance of the recruiters and also say, Hey, by the way, you got hired to do a job. And there’s there’s a level of performance that needs to take place. And when we turn that on, in organizations, first, what we’ll see is there’s probably 30 to 40% of recruiters, that will just flat out leave, though not always leaving your company, they’ll go back into other areas of HR or other areas within customer service. Like it because they look I didn’t, I didn’t take this job to recruit I take took this job to administer a recruiting process. I love the tactical aspect of this. Yeah. And you’re like, well, that’s not what we’re doing anymore, right? We’re hunting, we’re not farming. But and when you start making them hunters, instantly, what you’ll see though, is those who actually like to hunt, and those recruiters that know how to recruit, your capacity will go up, so you lose recruiters, but you’ll actually probably stay the same. And then as you fill in some of the some backfills on those recruiters, your capacity exponentially gets better. And people always like, Well, yeah, but then I’m gonna feel pressure, I’m gonna feel this like, no, like, that’s no what this is this is about. I don’t measure I don’t ever measure by recruiters via a hammer is to help them be more successful. And so if I want someone that wants to be successful, I’m going to help you be more successful. That’s great. But if you believe that I’m doing this, because I’m trying to fire you, then you might as well just leave now, because we are not on the same page. Yes, I want people that want to be successful, and I’m gonna help you get there.

David Turetsky: 27:45

So so let me play this back for you. So what you’re talking about is a culture performance aided or informed by the metrics gap enabled by the metrics, not hammered by the metrics.

Tim Sackett: 27:57

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that’s where too many leaders feel like, if I turn on metrics, and I’m micromanaging, and they’re and then they’re going to be hate me, you know, or whatever. And that’s just the wrong culture. But yeah,

David Turetsky: 28:08

That’s the difference between the CFOs office and HR. Yeah. Especially TA. Because the CFOs office uses the metrics as guideposts to change strategy. Yeah. Whereas HR has always used metrics inappropriately as a hammer like, like performance management. Yeah. You haven’t submitted your performance management, you haven’t. We don’t use metrics to say, hey, the business is going this direction. I think we need to look more deeply in order to leverage that. So Tim, we need to go. Tha k you so much for joining the HR Data Labs

Tim Sackett: 28:48

I love talking shop is great.

David Turetsky: 28:50

We’re gonna do this again soon. Okay. There are a million things we can talk about in the world of recruiting to talk about this. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And thank you, Dwight.

Dwight Brown: 29:01

Thanks for having me here again.

David Turetsky: 29:02

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