Compensation Beyond Cash

Connect with Katie Stukowski:

Connect with Greg Wolf:

Connect with Kevin Plankett:

Related Resources:

• Employee Benefits Every Employer Should Offer
• Reduce Employee Turnover
• Data is the Basis of Benefits
• Presenting a Compelling Compensation Package
• Creating a Compensation Philosophy
• Creating a Compensation Plan
• Presenting a Compelling Compensation Package
• The Role of Compensation Policy in a Compensation Plan
• Episode 4 – Pay Equity and Culture
• Episode 6 – How Historic Inflation is Impacting Compensation

Katie Stukowski 00:05
You certainly have to look at employees as the biggest investment within your organization. And not just a number on the bottom line.

Greg Wolf 00:13
But it really is around management development and creating a climate where employees really feel engaged with what's going on in.

Katie Stukowski 00:24
Having a teleworking type opportunity that we know so many employees are looking for right now being able to have that flexibility to work from home at least one or two days a week. But those same opportunities may not be ideal for other employees that are in different phases of their life. I think it's a matter of how can you create opportunity for for kind of the overall organization, and then it's a balancing act, you know, it's a balancing act of what's going to be beneficial for those that we need to retain.

Greg Wolf 00:55
And there's not a silver bullet, you know, there are things where we're forced to be more nimble, we're forced to be more creative before should be more understanding.

Katie Stukowski 01:06
If employees feel like what they have been providing as information is being listened to, that in itself creates a more competitive, engaged climate within your organization.

Greg Wolf 01:19
The job descriptions help employees to know what's required from them today. And not even just employees, but it helps managers together, then work with employees to make sure that that they do the best that they can.

Katie Stukowski 01:34
It's not one size fits all. It's not one size fits all for every organization on in the absence of cash.

Kevin Plunkett 01:45
From the Salary.com studio in Waltham, Massachusetts, this is Get Pay Right. The podcast that dives deep into the current compensation topics that matter to you most, so you can get it right every time. I'm Kevin Plunkett, and welcome to the Get Pay Right podcast amid a war for talent. And the impact of the Great Recession pay is accelerating quickly, which is driving up salaries. And many companies are coming to the realization that they just can't sustain the ever increasing levels of cash compensation. So what do you do? Well, there is a unique opportunity to explore ways to strengthen your company's value proposition. I mean, historically, companies have framed compensation mostly around pay. But the reality is the impact of COVID has made employees evaluate what is really important to them. And it's not just about the money. Companies need to get creative, and listen to what their employees want in order to attract and retain top talent. In this episode, we'll talk about what employees want, and how to strengthen your value proposition beyond cast compensation. And which companies are getting it right. Well, I've got a great panel with us today. I want to introduce introduce them both. Greg Wolf and Katie Stukowski. Why don't you introduce yourselves? Katie, you want to go first?

Katie Stukowski 03:20
Sure. Thanks, Kevin. I'm Katie Stokowski. I run this solutions consulting practice at Salary.com. I've been in the compensation and HR technology space for over a decade working very closely with clients as they look to find data and tools to help ensure their compensation practices are getting paid, right. And as well as with companies that are looking for better data or tools or just advice on how to continually evolve their compensation practice.

Kevin Plunkett 03:52
Well, welcome back, Katie. It's great to have you again. Thanks, Kevin. Greg.

Greg Wolf 03:57
Yes. Hey, good morning. My name is Greg Wolf. You know, I've been on the consulting side now for for quite a few years, both at the hay Consulting Group, as well as with salary.com. And, you know, I always kind of reflect back as you can kind of see changes in the market happening. And one of the things that I kind of attribute maybe some of the perspectives that I have, early in my career started out in production management, you know, managing production of greeting cards, ribbon and puzzles at Hallmark, but then transitioning over to corporate HR into a number of areas. You know, it really have helped kind of formulate maybe some of the things that you see in the market or you're hearing from clients that, you know, maybe some of those experiences, I can provide some insights. So it's really been rewarding to work with organizations to kind of help bring that along.

Kevin Plunkett 05:00
Well, that's great. Well, we certainly are going to welcome your wealth of knowledge here, Greg. So, you know, I guess, right out of the gate here, you know, the concept here is, you know, cash compensation, and the increasing pressure on salaries and organizations to be competitive, really, I think put some companies are at a perceived disadvantage. So, can an organization that maybe isn't as catch cash rich? Can they really compete for talent with with folks that can just keep throwing cash at a problem?

Greg Wolf 05:39
You know, that really is, I think, kind of the crux of, of really what we're seeing today? And, you know, kind of the question, you know, can they afford it? Can they not afford it, I mean, there's, you know, the environment has changed, so drastically, the landscape from what maybe has been pretty typical, and maybe a little bit of a, you know, kind of a slight increase to the slope, to all bets are off. So, you know, I think kind of the big question, I always try to ask and get discussions going in, because I think before, not really kind of to a huge extent, but organizations, somewhat treated employees, some better than others, maybe some worse than others as a cost, you know, versus an investment. And that's really the question and organizations that look still, and you could get by with it in the past, you know, if you were a little more of a Cost Conscious, always kind of coming back to the numbers today, you really can't. So I think that's kind of that first step and trying to highlight it, can we afford it? You can't afford not afford to kind of look at your folks as an investment.

Katie Stukowski 06:57
I, I would agree with Greg, I think you certainly have to look at employees as the biggest investment within your organization, and not just a number on the bottom line. And I think that's what companies have to think about when you ask the question, can you be competitive? is in some sense, yes, you have to be competitive with the market, which is a huge challenge we can talk about for every organization right now, with the way that inflation and the shifts in the economy are just driving just the rates of pay up to even recruit people to your company. But I think organizations have to decide what is competitive to them. And I think part of understanding what that means as a smaller or midsize organization where you certainly won't have the budgets that the Walmarts or the Amazons of the world we'll have. But I think it really goes back to Greg's point, do you know your employees? What does what? What is meaningful to the employees that you're trying to hire and the employees that you're trying to retain? And what is going to be something that's going to really pique their interest in continuing to grow with you as an organization, and that in itself, is starting to understand what is engaging to your employees, and employees are looking to hire will create a sense of competitiveness that might be beyond just pure cash, which I think is what we're going to be talking about continuously today.

Kevin Plunkett 08:23
Yeah, and so obviously, understanding what your employees want, right? And you know, what's important to them? This isn't really just about ping pong balls and Taco Tuesdays, right? I mean, this is really about something even bigger and broader. I mean, that may be the output that may be part of the solution. But it's not just those sort of cliched things. This is really about a philosophical viewpoint, Greg, like you mentioned, you're not thinking about your employees as a cost. You're thinking about them as an investment. So how do you as an organization sort of assess what employees want? And how does that translate to programs or changes that you make within your organization?

Greg Wolf 09:05
There's so many different areas, but almost all discussions that I have, it seems like in clients really kind of encapsulate, you know, organizations trying to figure out and project, how work workers in the workplace is evolving and what they best can do to remain competitive. And, you know, there really isn't one thing that I can really kind of highlight that's most important are their silver bullet, and I think before you could come up with that silver bullet. Now I'd say you have to have a really an automatic approach to you know, addressing the issues because it really comes around a higher demand from management, and HR than I've ever seen before that employees again, obviously they're a little more than your I've received they have greater demands, but it really is understanding those demands. And like we said, and I think, you know, if you've looked at any data over a period of time, it's not only about pay, I mean, you have to be on the radar screen, you have to be competitive, you have to have some clarity around what you're trying to do, they got the employees need to have some clarity about their job. But you know, they want more. So assuming that, you know, what are some of those things that they can do, and, you know, from, you know, you know, you kind of everything you hear employees want to be recognized, they want to be a trusted partner, they want to, you know, kind of have some respect in the workplace as they go through it. But, you know, when I kind of look at one of the areas that I really see resonating, and you know, what we'll talk on what additional benefits, but it really is around management, development and creating a climate where employees really feel engaged with what's going on. And I think for a while, we got away from having managers manage, sometimes the highest producing person gets promoted, were maybe they were awesome in their role, and they still are, but as a manager in some of the things that managers are responsible for the breadth of the job, could kind of be overlooked in the past, now, it's really coming to resonate, going forward. And, you know, just kind of a quick highlight there, which kind of brought it to my attention. In working on a recent comp study for an insurance organization, it was like, Hey, we don't believe your analysis. We think there's some holes in it, because I hear constantly, our turnover is extremely high in these areas. And you're saying we're more competitive than what the realities are. And in these other areas that you say they're not, they're actually less competitive. So I think we got an issue. So we really spent a lot of time breaking down the data, but ultimately, what came out. And it was really the CFO, which was, to me, sometimes a little bit of a surprise, because they can get kind of hung up on the numbers is, you know, I've been saying it all along, we have some management issues in those areas, we've been talking about it for a while. And now, maybe what our intuition was, is really kind of more correct, we just haven't addressed it over the last four or five years. So, you know, it's kind of those things where the management, a climate that supervisors and managers kind of create are getting a lot more visibility and demands, kind of in what we're doing today.

Kevin Plunkett 12:45
So it's not just about assessing what the employees want, it's about also assessing your organization's ability to push through that communication plan back to the employees, and that may be through the manager. It may be through HR, it may be through a series of different avenues. But the concept is, whatever it is, you're kind of trying to push forth. from a cultural standpoint, you really need those managers on board, you need to track what they're doing, correct.

Greg Wolf 13:16
Oh, exactly. Kevin, that's a great way to summarize it. Because, early on, and I mentioned just briefly that, you know, I started out my career in operations. And when I was managing departments and had supervisors reporting to me, I would sit back and I go, kind of why do I spend all my time with this one shift? Then the other two combined? I don't get it. Why is it? Do they just have a bad group again? Or are we just horrible and hiring for that shift? And after a short time and spending more time I like, hey, it's all coming down to management. And the employees just wanted out of that department as quickly as they got in and, and, you know, we were able to kind of maybe get the person into a better job that was a better fit for him, we got a better manager almost kind of stopped overnight. I mean, it stopped within a month or two versus everything we're dealing with. So kind of my main point is, is that that seems to really be what organizations seem to start to understand a little bit better on maybe what some opportunities are that we've kind of maybe let go over a number of years for obvious reasons for not just having the demands.

Kevin Plunkett 14:31
It's a, Katie, you know, some of this stuff may come out in sort of a pulse survey, right? But are you really going to find you know, those things that are unique to your culture that you can use to differentiate yourself in the marketplace? Is that the kind of stuff that's going to come through a pulse survey or how do you uncover those key differentiators that that kind of support your your corporate culture?

Katie Stukowski 14:58
I mean, that's a great question and I think In almost any case, starting with some form of data is always a really great start to really understand any sort of program or process or how to create opportunity for an organization polls, surveys, different types of trends and practice surveys, any form of data is going to get you at least some information on what are other organizations like yourself doing as well. So that way, again, you're thinking about how are we competing with whatever labor market, your organization is falling within, but then I do think it needs to be taken further, when it comes to actually thinking about well, what is your organization's culture, and what are, you know, the different groups or different shifts that you have within your organization, as, as Greg mentioned, and I think that's where involving managers and helping managers get better at communicating is really essential, because managers spend more time with their employees. They're the ones who think about who are the employees that are reporting to me, and every employee is going to value different opportunities within an organization. That's not to say that company can't think of broader practices that can help drive competitive offers within an organization, such as having a teleworking type opportunity that we know so many employees are looking for right now, being able to have that flexibility to work from home at least one or two days a week to be able to, you know, have that work life balance. And others might be looking at things like increasing maternity leave, and the timeframe that you know, women in the workplace can take when they choose to start or expand their families. But those same opportunities may not be ideal for other employees that are in different phases of their life that might be looking for increased matching to 401k, as they're thinking about retirement. So I think it's also really essential that as you think about the climate and the culture that you're building, you are helping to identify internally, what is important to the employees that you have more holistically than just creating a couple programs that maybe only create maybe a competitive culture for a subgroup of employees within your organization as well. And again, that comes down to helping educate and get managers involved. And we talked about this on a previous podcast that talking about pay should be an essential competency for managers, because pay is the number one reason that employees are going to come or leave a company, but being able to then have broader conversations with employees around what are their career goals, what is important to them buy in either joining an organization from a cultural perspective or die, that is going to help organizations get a little bit more creative, when they might not have, again, unless budgets to keep up with necessarily just pay. And Greg made such a great point managers are The number two reason employees join or leave an organization. So investing more time in that group, I think is essential for organizations on top of Yes, collecting data and figuring out what programs might make sense. But as Greg just mentioned, you can sometimes produce the data. And you could still have an underlying issue, even though the data says something very differently, because that communication barrier has broken down.

Kevin Plunkett 18:24
Right, and you bring up a very good point, you know, the workforce has changed as and so his office life, right? You know, we're more remote work is here to stay. And offering flexibility, I think is becoming more and more of a requirement than it is a perk. And so that's probably something that is a absolute, probably moving forward for most organizations that can that can offer that, that their working environment would allow that to happen. You know, Katie made a great point. I mean, not all benefits will appeal to everybody in the organization. So how do you segment the various benefits, you know, for generational appeal? I mean, do you do a little bit for each group? Do you find stuff that appeals to everybody? You know, how do you approach that?

Katie Stukowski 19:13
That's a great question. I think part of it is first understanding what is kind of your overall culture and employee population holistically? You know, have you done any sort of surveying of your own organization and kind of what the employee pool in the employee population looks like and done any sort of internal engagement surveys and maybe what your employees are looking for? That's always a really great place to start to start to identify what are some of the additional culture or benefit or programs that a company might think of instituting within their organization? And I think Greg made a great point around benefits that there are some things that I think will benefit everybody within an organization. You know, as we think about kind of this remote culture we've moved into in the last few years, things like telehealth that organizations have been able to offer I think, for almost any employee at any generation in the organization can benefit from something like telehealth programs, it's convenient, it's easy. I know for myself, you know, being a mom being able to just have a doctor's appointment via zoom, and be able to get that done in 15 minutes versus having to constantly book appointments and bring myself or children to a doctor's office for something that's minor, can really go a long way and is extremely appealing. But I think benefits like that also appeal to the younger generation, to me, maybe even less mindful of meetings, even go to the doctor when they do but I think then you you're gonna have other programs that you should be thinking about to invest in employees that are going to grow with your organization as well, you know, I think we talked about, you know, Amazon releasing a statement that they're going to pay full college tuition for frontline workers, like that's a fabulous investment in their employees. And although that might not impact individuals that are looking to advance their career, they're investing in the future of their company as well. So I think it's a matter of how can you create opportunity for for kind of the overall organization, and then it's a balancing act, you know, it's a balancing act of what's going to be beneficial for those that we need to retain that we maybe have seen loyalty and legacy within the organization and just are looking for different opportunities and different types of benefits. And then what can we do for those that we're looking to invest in to make sure we're retaining because that's another big piece that organizations are struggling with right now, it's not only competitive to hire and bring people in the door, they also need to make sure that they're retaining employees and helping them develop with the organization when, you know, the labor market is the way it is right now, where employees can go pretty much to any company and demand a higher rate of pay if necessary, if they're looking to maybe shift gears to. But I definitely think again, data starting with even doing some of your own internal employee survey survey to see what employees within your organization are looking to do. And then certainly, if you're looking to compete for talent, what are other organizations doing on the marketplace that you might be able to start to bring in and facilitate within your company as well.

Kevin Plunkett 22:23
So I guess, you know, these services kind of are, you know, benefits, right, kind of fall into different buckets, you know, some are financial, like 401k, you know, some are personal growth, like you just mentioned, you know, the tuition reimbursement, or you might have personal services, like a concierge or pet care services or offering lunch at the at the office, right. Or there might even be some more altruistic type benefits where, you know, you're helping people give back to the community, volunteering, blood drives going green. So it's taking a look at what your organization wants to project from a cultural perspective, and picking and choosing some of these various elements from different sectors to help satisfy that need. Do either of you have any advice on how to kind of go about assessing that and then putting that plan in place?

Greg Wolf 23:13
You know, Katie, I thought the interesting part on a comment that you made earlier regarding Amazon, and tuition, I'm not really a big Chipotle person, but you know, I'll go periodically, and I'm kind of waiting there. And, and I looked up and even Chipotle said, Hey, if you work 24 hours a week or more, they will pay up to $5,200, towards your college education. And, you know, it's unbelievable, you know, plus benefits and everything that they're doing. So I think they see that resources as being something that they really need to tap into. And the other piece that I think kind of follows. That same trend is in staffing. And one of the things that, again, I think that we've done a really excellent job on as an organization, as well as some others is to really looking at our internal folks that bring recommendations on others to hire has been a great avenue. And, you know, not only are they bringing is usually typically great candidates, I don't know if I've seen too many situations where an employee really brought somebody that we didn't think was at least somebody take a strong look at. But I think that really helps kind of build kind of the commitment to the organization. When they bring others in. It's like, Hey, I feel a little more committed to the organization. I get to people here, and then it just builds that community and then it almost seems like it expands from there. So I think organizations are taking that avenue a lot more seriously than they have in the past and it's I think it's worked out pretty well across the board.

Kevin Plunkett 25:00
How? So let me ask another question here. Greg, your your Chipotle story? Well, I'll tell you that, that that advertisement about the fresh guacamole is I love. There's got to be a big draw. So, yeah, maybe providing fresh guacamole at the office might be hard. But to your point, Greg, who's getting it? Right, right. You know, what are some success stories you've heard out there because this isn't easy, right? And, and it taps it. In order to get it to be successful, there are multiple elements within the organization that have to contribute. And I imagine it's not just coming up with the services, but it's also messaging them and selling them to the employees, right? Messaging and positioning it so that people understand the benefit and how it ties in with the culture. Do you have some examples of where folks that have done a really good job there?

Greg Wolf 25:58
And no, that is really a great question. And I think really kind of the $64,000 question that organizations kind of wrestle with, and kind of the one kind of analogy that, you know, we have seem to have a lot of discussions, and I can use it quite a bit. It's, you know, from my own experience, and Hallmark greeting cards in Kansas City was was huge. I mean, it was like, beyond just a company. And, you know, I started my career off there. And then after a period of time, I'd been an operations and incorporate HR, I decided to leave and join the hate group. And in at that point, it was like, my family was involved, and just couldn't believe it. My father in law, again, was not pleased at all, and told me I'd regret that decision. Not not only for a short time, but the rest of my life. So, you know, communicating that, that things are different today, and there's not a silver bullet, you know, there are things where we're forced to be more nimble, we're forced to be more creative, we're forced to be more understanding. And it's really putting more pressure on managers, the shift kind of from employees to continually prove themselves and, you know, kind of the, almost the attitude or unspoken rule is okay, employee, you get to come back tomorrow, versus managers really being kind of asked to do their job at a much higher level with more understanding, more commitment. So it's, it's all those things because Kevin, your question is really good. And it just kind of keeps ringing different ideas, on who's being most successful. And it's an organization that I was working with, there's an Oklahoma City, and it was an insurance organization. And they, we just, it's so different. I mean, we're paying competitively for the region, with a changing landscape of how organizations see their job. There's a company in San Francisco that somehow got a conduit into the Oklahoma City Market, which happens to be a really good it Barkat and started paying them noticeably higher than what they were offering in Oklahoma City. And, you know, you, you look at San Francisco, the actual median of the market is much higher. So they're paying much higher than what this organization insurance company could pay. But still probably a lot less than what they would have to pay there. So it just watching the insurance company kind of transition and really putting some areas or focusing on other areas that they needed to to kind of be able to address kind of that changing environment. So I think those organizations that are more nimble, that are more open, that are more creative, and really see management is kind of a key to be able to kind of provide some of that are those that seem to be moving more quickly, to a better position going forward than others that seem to think that it's, it's, you know, we're in the same position, the demands on us are the same, and we don't see it changing and in some cases in a very positive way. I mean, some of the changes again, it's very painful, obviously, during the pandemic, but some of the changes that I see in working with clients are actually well overdue and, and encouraging. And I think it's going to play out well into the future once everybody kind of figures that out.

Kevin Plunkett 29:43
So what were the I mean, that's a great story about your, your insurance company. So what kind of things did they do in order to compete against, you know, a more formidable competitor that's able to pay more money?

Greg Wolf 29:59
Yeah, so they kind of made ate, which I think is really important, you know, they made a decision that it's not only going to be about pay, you know, so it's like, oh my gosh, they left, we got to update because now we're competing with the West Coast. But they did, we did have some discussions about moving to a more competitive position in pay, but it also and I think that probably their biggest change was to make sure employees felt equipped, they updated, maybe some of the technologies, some of the offerings, some of the equipment that some of the IT group did, they brought him into the decision making point a little bit more quickly. And in kind of the third one that they talked about, that I really didn't think about at the time. And they they started giving the IT folks, especially those, they had some kind of a selection process of having them pick out what projects they want to work on, you know, giving them that level of autonomy. But that piece after I sat back and said, This ad is really creative. I like that. And I think all those together made a difference. But you know, given the employees that autonomy, giving them that extra Hey, what do you think, what do you have passion with? Where can you make the biggest difference and have both, you know, more meaning in what you do and unbelievably received?

Kevin Plunkett 31:25
That's interesting. So overall, empowering your employees, giving them more choice more control over what they do, and how they do it. Sounds like that sounds just sort of common sense. But maybe that's not something that is typical within corporate America. And so you know, we've talked about this in other podcasts, too, right? You're sitting in the HRC, you see all this happening, you want to be proactive. And yet, you've got the challenge of trying to convince leadership that may not see the same issues as you do. And you don't because of that, it's forcing you to become more reactive rather than proactive. And we've also talked in the past, the data really is a key factor here. But you need in order to get buy in from leadership, you need data. I imagine that is also part of the solution here. Is that correct? Katie?

Katie Stukowski 32:23
I'm a big proponent of data. And data comes in all forms. You know, again, not just do you have survey data to set your pay practices? Are you doing employee engagement surveys internally to look at the data as to what employees actually are really looking for in an organization? And are they truly engaged? Are you looking at how diverse your organization is? You know, I think a lot of times in organizations, you're correct compensation and HR. Professionals are the owners of the data, they own data in an organization. And they're so close to seeing what's actually happening. And it's being able to then provide that to facilitate the right conversations, whether that's up the ladder to the C suite, to get the buy in that you need, or to the managers to help educate them and help empower them to have better conversations. Because without data backing up the decisions that you're making, we're all just making a bunch of assumptions. And it's really important to make sure that and it's, it's easy to talk about. And then in practice, when we're just reacting to the market, and we're in a landscape that we've never seen before, it can be much more difficult to put into place. But if you don't understand what's happening in your organization, or what's happening within other organizations like you or what your employees are really looking for, it's really hard to make sure you're then implementing the best pay or benefits or programs that's really going to create the impact that you are seeking and date is a really great place to start when it comes to that. Greg might have a different opinion, but I'm a big fan of data.

Greg Wolf 34:02
No, that's yeah, no, I 100% agree because it does help. At times, some of the discussions become can become too emotional. And then when you bring in some data, at least it kind of levels the playing field and provides kind of some better dialogue for sure.

Katie Stukowski 34:21
It also helps employees feel like they had a voice if you are actually doing some sort of research on what employees are looking for, and gaining data or even serving your own employees or or partaking in other surveys as well. If employees feel like what they have been providing as information is being listened to, that in itself creates a more competitive, engaged climate within your organization.

Greg Wolf 34:48
Well, how transparent should we be with our comp program, but it really is much more than that. And, you know, employees want to have some clarity and I think you know, getting to Ya know, you're really right in the middle of all that. But, you know, around job descriptions back not that many years ago, well, I guess, probably quite a few more than I'd like to admit. But a few years ago, it wasn't about job descriptions, hey, it's all about the employee. And, you know, job descriptions, and maybe a few lines is fine, but there really is a need. And what we're seeing in the market with talking to organizations is providing better clarity in the job that they're in the requirements of the job, making sure they're fully equipped, but also helping them understand what career development opportunities are available, and what the career path might be. And it becomes so much easier when you have a some clarity around what the organization's doing, where it's going, how your job in what you're doing today, kind of is a building block for what you can do down the road, and you see yourself not just in the job that you're at. But really kind of the opportunities that you have going kind of throughout your career. So I think that's going to be the key. For employees, you know, not we talked about a lot of other things. But that's going to be a key one that they can connect the dots, they have some clarity, they feel part of it, they feel empowered. And job descriptions is a place that we're seeing, kind of starting across all organizations and sectors that they need to update those and have those more current. So that's kind of actually kind of exciting, because you have an updated job description, description, you can have other detailed discussions, whether it's performance management and development programs, you can have a better succession plans, you can connect the dots for employees and so forth. Katie, to kind of really tie into kind of what you were laying out around career development, I think what we're seeing at more of a tangible level, is some of the work that organizations are doing to kind of tie in their job descriptions and having some clarity around what employees do because employees want to have clarity. And it's not just about how they're paid. It's about what's going on in the organization. What are we doing? And why are we doing this today? And what does it look like, as we move down to next year or the year after. And they want to feel part of a successful organizations, but job descriptions help employees to know what's required from them today, and not even just employees, but it helps managers to kind of then work with employees to make sure that that they do the best that they can. And they're providing kind of leadership in what they're doing. So job descriptions are really important to help employees in their job today. But it's even more important to have them as you were saying with career development, Katie, and how the dots are connected and what some career options would be. So they don't see themselves grinding it out today only, even though that's very important. But how they see themselves potentially in a year or two or five years from now. And if an orc does, and if an employee sees himself five years from now, and that vision is within the organization, retention and engagement is much higher than what it would be like otherwise. So yeah, I like the career development piece. And I think, job descriptions and getting back to some of the basics. I see organizations really resonating to today.

Katie Stukowski 38:54
I think that's another way to that companies are learning how to be a little bit more competitive and creative when they don't necessarily have the cash flow to just offer higher salaries where necessary job descriptions to your point, Greg, they tie in so nicely with being able to provide transparency to employees that you currently have and what their career growth is and being able to see, you know, what are the skills or competencies or proficiencies they need to gain to move into new positions within an organization and they can see that future they can see that development opportunity, which in itself creates loyalty and engagement with employees. But we're also seeing that with organizations to be competitive in the market be more transparent about what are the actual ranges? What are the jobs that they have within their organization, and even posting that externally? So as they're looking to recruit, they're starting to be more transparent around well, what is the range of pay for every role within our company? What does that opportunity look like in order to compete with things like the Amazon of Fact where, you know, a warehouse comes into their market, and they can't offer the same dollar rate that Amazon can, they can offer transparency. And they can offer the opportunity for employees who joined that company to identify Well, what is the potential growth for me here. And I think that's another great way to just be more creative and transparent around what your compensation practices are to be competitive in itself.

Kevin Plunkett 40:26
So what I'm what I'm hearing guys is, you know, as we've gone through, this is, at the core of all this is employee value, right? employees want to feel valued. I mean, there's one way to value employees, and that's in what you pay them. But there's other elements around employee value, that aren't specifically compensation related. It's career growth, it's engagement, it's being heard, it's being listened to. And, you know, if I had to sum, all of these sort of bits and pieces that we've talked about today, it seems like employee value, and finding a way to make your employees feel valued, is really what this is all about. Is that a fair statement?

Greg Wolf 41:09
That's exactly what employees are wanting, you know, they want to feel respected, they want to be trusted, they want to have a recognition and, and Kevin along those lines, which I think you hit on a couple of key points there. And it even ties back further where Katie was kind of telling us how much she loves research and data, I think that really is a key to making sure we understand how the numbers work. Because a couple times when an organization had high turnover, it was talking to them about the cost of turnover. So you know, your turnover is x and we did a comp study, and you know that the numbers were extremely high on what we were telling them, that they should increase their ranges by to be competitive. But, you know, when working through the cost of turnover, it was interesting, because as we were going down through it, just a just think if you reduced your turnover in half, what dollars would be available to do other things to make adjustments to your compensation program, to have some changes in your benefits, potentially, looking at career development opportunities, and education and advancement. And, and I, you know, we went through the whole detailed calculation, and then at the end, the comments from really the HR person CHRO, as well as the CEO, was that, hey, I disagree with the numbers. And I'm like, oh, gosh, they said those numbers are way low with what we are spending on turnover, those numbers are extremely low, your points a good one, but I think there's a lot more money we're leaving on the table. And we need to kind of really recognize that and work that into our formulas. So it kind of comes back to all those things. But you know, it's its data, its research is, as Katie was saying that really kind of helps clarify those discussions.

Kevin Plunkett 43:13
So, I want to thank you both for joining us. I think we covered a lot here. You know, I don't know if you have a final thought. But if you're writing in an elevator, and a head of HR came to you and said, Hey, how can I compete without cash? And why should I do it? You know, what would be a quick thought you'd provide them?

Greg Wolf 43:37
I think my main one would be great question, but there's no silver bullet. But let's sit down when you have more time to really talk through everything that's going on, and how you need to be more nimble and flexible. And keeping the plates spinning and so many more years than we were ever that we ever needed to before. Times are different. But the opportunities I think are even greater.

Kevin Plunkett 44:12
Okay, Katie.

Katie Stukowski 44:15
Greg stole my silver bullet line. So maybe I would just say everyone loves Chipotle and data. So just provide that as an organization now. I do think

Kevin Plunkett 44:29
Fresh guacamole and data.

Katie Stukowski 44:30
Fresh guacamole and data. I do think to Greg's point, there is no everyone's looking for the right answer. And it's not one size fits all. It's not one size fits all for every organization on in the absence of cash. What can we do that's going to create the most engaged climate and culture and workforce that we're seeking. But I do think as I often give advice around it would be start by taking Small steps, start by identifying what are the programs and processes we offer today? Are they actually valued? Are they things that employees even know that we have and understand the benefit that's been provided to them? And then what are some of the other opportunities that we could provide that we are again hearing starting to listen that maybe both employees looking to join a company or valuing in an organization and employees that you are looking to keep and retain? What are they looking for as part of that continued opportunity within your company as well? So I think it's taking small steps. It's identifying what you have today, what's working, what are the gaps that maybe the employees are saying and starting to listen in that respect and then getting some of your executive buy in to start putting some new process and program in place and it might be at the individual employee level and it might be at the broader employee level as well.

Kevin Plunkett 46:06
Great, well, thank you everybody. The Get Pay Right podcast is produced by Kevin Plunkett, Mary Crogan and Megan, Nadeau. If there are topics you'd like to hear about, let us know at Get Pay Right at Salary.com. A big thank you to our sound engineer Jay Sheehan of Garrett Audio. Thank you all for listening, and make the time to get it right.