Tara Furiani – Budgeting for Salaries in an Uncertain World

Connect with Tara Furiani:

• 

Connect with Dwight:

• 
• dwight.brown@salary.com

Connect with David:

• 
• 
• david.turetsky@salary.com

 

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Not the HR Lady
• Compensation Consulting Services
• HR Data Labs Season 5 Episode 2
• HR Data Labs Season 4 Episode 25

• “We're not going back [to pre-pandemic times], we're going forward. Organizations really need to take that in. There are going to be higher expenses for salaries, which are going to result in higher expenses for taxes and other things. We have to do it though . . . if we want to remain competitive as organizations.”
• “I'm gonna talk directly to employers right now. You all have core values, mission, a vision, pillars of excellence, whatever. Look at them, study them, read them, reflect on if those are what you actually are in reality. . . . [because] if you're not doing that stuff, people notice.”

Announcer: 0:02

Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR Data Labs podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

 

David Turetsky: 0:46

Hello, and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky. We have with us today like always our friend and colleague Dwight Brown from Salary.com. Hey, Dwight.

 

Dwight Brown: 0:57

Hey, David, how you doing?

 

David Turetsky: 1:00

I'm good. As we always do, we try and find the most fun, interesting, brilliant people to talk to about the world of human resources about data analytics, process and technology. Today, we have the honor of having Not the HR Lady, Tara Furiani. A person who needs very little introduction, but never one little one. She's the CPO of Project Access. Tara, welcome, and good morning.

 

Tara Furiani: 1:25

Hello, David, Dwight, thank you for having me.

 

David Turetsky: 1:29

Thank you for being here. Tara, give us a little bit more about your background. How you got to this place.

 

Tara Furiani: 1:36

Yeah, I would love to hear so I have been working in the world with people for over 20 years. I've been a Chief People Officer for the last 12 I also host a show called Not the HR Lady. I did keynote speaking all over the world. And I talk about everything people just don't talk about at work. So whether it's misogyny or racism or sexism or pay disparity, we cover everything, LGBTQ issues, pronouns, we really talk about the things that others don't and it's all things people, no BS. And I just love what I do. It's so much fun. I really work recently, for about the last, I don't know, six or seven months with Project Access a nonprofit based in Southern California, but all over the country and growing, they do incredible mission driven work within lower income and, you know, often marginalized communities where scholarships are a thing and food pantries and the ability to have tutoring and after school care, and we provide some amazing resources for our residents all over the country. It's it's really proud work that I do.

 

David Turetsky: 2:36

Excellent. Tara, you are the original HR badass.

 

Tara Furiani: 2:41

Thank you. Oh,

 

David Turetsky: 2:42

We are huge fans of you. And we support you all the time. And

 

Tara Furiani: 2:47

I really appreciate you. You know how fond I am of you too, I hope.

 

David Turetsky: 2:51

Well, thank you, but but we are nowhere near as brave and honest. And forward thinking as you are. And that's why we think you're a superhero.

 

Tara Furiani: 3:02

Well, I appreciate that bravery is so such an interesting word, right? Because I somebody has to talk about the things that people don't talk about it is incredibly isolating, you know, to be in, in roles that are high level in any role in any organization, any person is everybody is going through something and you don't talk about those some things like alcoholism, you know, like being in a just incredibly bad mental space because of your personal life. You know, we call in sick and we cough when we what we're really experiencing is like real trauma, real things inside. And I think normalizing that is just so critical.

 

David Turetsky: 3:39

And, and it is because we've always lived in a world, especially at work, where we've had to sweep all this shit, pardon my French, under the rug. And we've had to have that brave face at work, and pretend where somebody we're not. When deep down inside, as you say, and we all know, we're dying inside. And there's no one to help us unless we ask for help or reach out for help. And we know we've all needed it every once in a while. And if we didn't have someone like you to reach out and go, I need somebody. And if that person wasn't there, they suffer. And a lot of times they do die because they don't have that brave person to you know to raise their hand and say I'll help you. So thank you.

 

Tara Furiani: 4:22

Thank you. That's so kind of you to say thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 4:25

My pleasure. But on the fun note, what's one fun thing that no one knows about Tara or very few people.

 

Tara Furiani: 4:33

So this is a funny one. And honestly, I am such an open book. I talk truly about my whole life.

 

David Turetsky: 4:39

It is true.

 

Tara Furiani: 4:40

Everybody knows, right? That's fair. You know what's going on with me. So it was a stretch. I actually had to ask Justin and he pointed out what about the typing thing? So here's a really funny thing. I can type about 100 words per minute without any inaccuracies. I'm a very fast typer but in about 2016 my good friend and fellow Chief People Officer and Edgar Poureshagh pointed, he was sitting across from me and he goes, you, are you tight just so fast? How do you do it with just two fingers? And I was like, What do you mean? And he goes, you literally only use your two pointer fingers. And I'm like, what? And so my hands sit perfectly where they go, my like, I'm doing it right now on my keyboard, my hands sit like you were taught, right? My hands are like this. And I'm doing that. But like, I really do only type with these two fingers. And but it looks like I type perfectly normal, but I just type incredibly fast with these two fingers. While it looks like I'm doing it correctly. It is very bizarre. And I had never like literally in 16 years of work at that point. I had never noticed this about myself. I didn't know I did that. Nobody had ever said anything. And sure as shit, I do. These two fingers type 100 words a minute?

 

David Turetsky: 5:54

Wow. Wow.

 

Tara Furiani: 5:55

Yes.

 

David Turetsky: 5:56

So I don't know if you remember, but and there are a lot of people who may not be old enough on the podcast listeners. We used to have a typing class. But it was on typewriters. This is a long time ago, I was back in high school. And they would literally tell you you're doing it wrong and reposition your hands if you're doing it wrong. And I used to have that so IBM or I think it was an IBM Selectric typewriter at home. And I would practice when I got home from school. And my mom would look over my shoulder and go you're doing it wrong. I'm like, Oh, I hate this. Yeah. So thank God, we don't have to do any more. We all have keyboards!

 

Dwight Brown: 6:33

You'd get it at school, get it at home.

 

Tara Furiani: 6:35

Yeah, it's my weird fact.

 

David Turetsky: 6:39

Wow.

 

Tara Furiani: 6:40

Is that bizarre? Right?

 

David Turetsky: 6:41

It is.

 

Tara Furiani: 6:41

Like who does that?

 

Dwight Brown: 6:44

I've just been, I'm just working through the mental image in my head. I'm like, Huh, that's an interesting thought.

 

Tara Furiani: 6:51

I think I'll have Justin like, come behind me while I'm typing. And, and like make a video of it. Because it is, it is honestly now that I am aware that I do it, it is kind of funny. Like I, it looks like I'm typing correctly. Like you wouldn't know, I don't type like this, I type like this. Everything looks proper. And what I mean by that is like I used my whole hand there in those right positions, like you were talking about, except only these are doing the work!

 

David Turetsky: 7:16

Glad you're not back in high school because they'd be

 

Tara Furiani: 7:19

I know!

 

David Turetsky: 7:19

They might even use the ruler on us.

 

Tara Furiani: 7:23

I remember typing class where they tap your little fingers. Maybe that's my form of rebellion, I'm not sure.

 

David Turetsky: 7:29

But as they're not allowed to do that anymore. So today, we have an extremely fun topic. And for those people who followed our program for a while, you know that we're very passionate about compensation and about getting it right. And today we're talking about salaries. How do we budget in an uncertain world? Because we're living in one of the most uncertain worlds that we've seen in decades?

 

Tara Furiani: 7:55

Yeah.

 

Announcer: 7:57

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 8:07

So Tara, Why is 2022 so different when we're talking about salaries? What makes this so uncertain?

 

Tara Furiani: 8:14

Oh, man. So in, in all the times that we've had since COVID began and 2020, everything has just been so different. So uncertain what's going on? You know, there's a lot of change just happening at you know, I think implicitly. And in 2022, as we start to move out and move away from that pandemic period, I'm certainly people are still getting it. But that real, you know, just shift of the whole world shutting down and all that. Now we're getting some sense of normalcy. And as we get back into 2023, I think we're getting to a place where we could see even more normalcy. But what is normal now is not normal in 2019. Times have changed, things are different. And I think in 2022, it's really shown us that the COLA went up, the Fed continues to raise interest rate, there's so much, I think, just expense wise, that goes beyond that $15 an hour debate. But, you know, everybody's been having about what minimum wage should be and, you know, all of these different kinds of like starting wages for folks. And it's like, companies are making billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars. Actually read that the Walt Disney Company recently had like their best year since like 2016, which is just amazing. You'd see it with the ticket prices that they're raising, and I just wonder are salaries following suit? And they should be! So 2022 is so weird in that space that it has grown so much, but it's continuing to grow. We're not going back. We're going forward. And I think organizations really need to just take that in. That there's going to be higher expenses for salaries, which is going to result in higher expenses for taxes and other things.

 

David Turetsky: 9:55

Oh absolutely.

 

Tara Furiani: 9:56

We have to do it though. It's like you have to do that if you want to remain competitive as an organization, if you want to be somebody who's attractive to work at, have that positive word of mouth, you're just going to have to take that one or 2% less, or throw it onto your customer bases and raise your prices. But no matter what salaries have to go somewhere. And that's where I think 2022 is that time that what that really sink in, as we're budgeting for 2023, and not be naive about where we're still going.

 

David Turetsky: 10:25

There are some things about 2022 that are so different because the world is in crisis. It's not just the United States that's having this issue. I think sometimes we kind of are a little bit too egocentric and ethnocentric. The world is in crisis. The world, whether it whether it's from oil, whether it's from the war in Ukraine, whether it's from famine, and climate change, and whatnot, there is a major change happening in 2022. And the other thing that's happening to the US itself is the demographics are changing, we don't have the influx of immigrants that we used to have that would help us with some of the lower wage jobs. And that's the reason why starting salaries are going much higher, we don't have the same demographics. On top of that, the demographics are changing, where we're not having as many kids! And so we're not putting into the marketplace, as many workers as there used to be. So this isn't just a problem for now, this is a problem for our future, where the supply of labor in the US is constrained. Unemployment is at an all time low. We can't find people. And so to your point, starting salaries are crazy high. People who've been working for a while, are looking around going, hey, the grass is greener, great resignation, great whatever, Great Awakening, I can leave and go to into a less stressful role and take more money and get more money. How does that make sense? And so the world has totally changed in the way that workers and employers are really kind of working together.

 

Tara Furiani: 11:59

Yeah, and I think when Employers appreciate and understand that, that that's just the reality and stop fighting it, you'll find that you are able to attract and then retain, folks, I mean, there can't just be this movement of, okay, so here's what the here's where we're at. And we're starting people at 15, 18, whatever, dollars an hour, but half your workforce is still under that. So they're there to your point that grass is free, or what we did it Project Access, we've been doing all your long compensation analyses and ensuring that we work updating our job descriptions, updating our salary bands, we just did it again. And we found in some instances, we were 6, 7, 8, 12% under the market now. And in some really interesting places like Columbia, South Carolina, for one. That whole area is experiencing just a major boom, it's a beautiful place. They did a whole campaign. And it's got some great employers who are committing to work life balance to enjoy their beautiful state. And there's compelling things out there, I think where it is driving that market, though higher in some unusual places. And so having that cognizance if you're a decentralized company, like we are Project Access, there is an opportunity, I think, for you to continually to go, what the heck is going on? Why can't we hire anybody? Why isn't $25 an hour enough anymore? But we're not looking at it like, oh, woe is us. It's like, how do we compete? How do we remain people forward, and that's how you win. That's how organizations win with that mindset. It's just naive thinking to think it'll ever go back to any way it was. And then it's even more naive thinking to think that it's not going to continue to grow.

 

David Turetsky: 13:40

Absolutely.

 

Tara Furiani: 13:41

And, and that's the reality.

 

David Turetsky: 13:43

It is. And I think the word you use of naive, it's, we've been hearing employers say things are gonna get back to normal. Whether it's work life balance, whether it's working from home or compensation, employers works not going to get back to what you think of as normal before 2020, it's not, it's going to be different, because employees now have a difference in how they want to live. And they've seen that and they've lived it in the last two years, they're not going to want to go back. And the more you push people to go back, the more they're going to say, You know what, I'm going to the other, you know, other company down the street, where I'm not going to be as stressed out, and they care about people, and they're gonna let me work from home or work for anywhere else from or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Dwight Brown: 14:29

Let's face it, the genie's out of the bottle. You're not putting it back at this point.

 

David Turetsky: 14:33

It is.

 

Tara Furiani: 14:35

There's no better way to say that, Dwight? Like, exactly like the genies out of the bottle like you had all the way up until 2019 to be whatever kind of shitty employer you have previously been. But now, you just can't do that. You just can't do that anymore. And NDAs aren't going to solve anything for you.

 

David Turetsky: 14:52

Right, non competes either. Yeah.

 

Tara Furiani: 14:54

Yeah, you can't just pay people off, severence people out because of your bad behavior. And then NDA them away like, no people are smarter than that now, people aren't taking anybody's bullshit and and companies need to just get a line, like get on board or probably find your way out, you know, in the market because you won't have anybody working for you.

 

David Turetsky: 15:13

Well, the other thing that makes 2022 so crazy is that when we've talked about recession in past years, anytime you started using the word recession, layoffs was the next obvious step. And it has not actually happened that way right now. There, yes, there have been a few companies that have laid off very strategically, by the way, kind of leaning into what the recession might be. But we haven't seen that. And it might be because there's such a resource constrained anyways, that if they do let them go, then this is me thinking glass half full, that they want to be maybe do something better for their employees, or they realize that if they try and have to hire those people back after the recession, they're going to have to pay ridiculous and absorbent rates to hire people back. Hopefully, it's not that and hopefully they're thinking more altruistically. I know that's not you, Tara.

 

Tara Furiani: 16:06

I'd like to I'd like to jump on that bandwagon with you, David. But I don't know, like, I hope right, and so many are. You see that in really large organizations, I think where where are they, where there are companies that don't have resources to kind of share that with them, who don't have a chief people officer or somebody who kind of minds that store. And frankly, that's my role is a new role. Having it, having been it for 12 years is pretty long, considering it's fairly new and in our world. And what I think is so interesting about that is to exactly your point, somebody isn't thinking that right? You've got your operations folks or finance folks, your CEO, your board, kind of drilling down your neck, who's going okay, but hey, I love what you're doing here. But we need to shave off about 4%. All this going on to pop it back in over here. Right. And that's just the reality. So I Yeah,

 

David Turetsky: 16:58

yeah. I'm just hoping though, that leaning into the wind, like you were talking about and doing the right thing for people become something that is not just a nice thing to do. But it's the right thing to do for your company.

 

Tara Furiani: 17:12

Not a box to check.

 

Dwight Brown: 17:13

Exactly, yeah, exactly.

 

Tara Furiani: 17:15

Not a box to check. Yeah, I'm with it.

 

David Turetsky: 17:19

Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this? Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to Salary.com/HRDLConsulting, to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today. So, Tara, let's switch gears a little bit and talk about next year, we already know that inflation is kind of vacillating. It's going a little up a little down a little up a little down. We know that the Fed has talked about tightening to kind of restrain inflation. They just raised interest rates point seven five basis points again. And so what are we going to be doing differently for 2023? What do you see if you were reading your tea leaves? What do you think is going to be different in 2023?

 

Tara Furiani: 18:12

Let me pull out my cards. Somebody sent these to me.

 

David Turetsky: 18:15

Oh, that's great affirmation cards,

 

Tara Furiani: 18:17

little affirmation cards. Yeah. So in 20, let's find out what what the what the stars say the star state patience. It really does.

 

David Turetsky: 18:25

It really, for those of you listening it literally says patience!

 

Tara Furiani: 18:30

It literally says, it says congratulations, you've been granted. We've been granted more patience, you may start using it right away or much, much later. So maybe in 2023 waiting a long time is the sort of option now afforded to you by greater patience. Can you believe it? Look at this, you're still reading and you haven't started getting annoyed yet. Imagine how this patience will transform your life.

 

David Turetsky: 18:51

By the way, this is the first time on the HR Data Labs podcast we've ever read tarot cards.

 

Tara Furiani: 18:57

Imagine how easy it will be to go to the post office

 

Dwight Brown: 19:02

To go to the post office?

 

Tara Furiani: 19:09

For that long the DMV? Yeah, no, no, I didn't plan that. Frankly. That is literally what came up. But if I had to, if I had to give any advice, it probably would be that and it would be that change is still gonna come and you're gonna have to be patient with the fact that the uncertainty is not going to stop just yet. I think we have another year of probably figuring out where exactly our norms now are. And I don't think that we should be unwelcoming of some of those changes, it doesn't necessarily just mean higher costs for employers or higher cost of goods for us as consumers because of wage increases. It doesn't necessarily mean that. I think we're going to see an interesting shift in technology and capabilities with with that, and I think when you're thinking about the human and technology aji aspect merging together 2023 could really be interesting for, again, establishing what our norms look like and how processes are done and how we approach the experience of employees, we're gonna have to keep doing comp analyses, we're going to have to keep looking at what a total rewards package is, we're gonna have to keep our finger on the pulse of the world, as employers, and as leaders, I think we're gonna have to drive it. Also pivot also sometimes break, and occasionally completely reimagine whatever it was that we're doing, it's still gonna be a year of great change. But I think it's gonna be a year changing into what normal looks like.

 

David Turetsky: 20:42

I know that you didn't say this exactly. But I think one of the things you were talking about you were talking about total rewards. And because our topic is salaries, our friend Steve brink, who runs uflex rewards, one of the things he's been touting significantly, and I'm not trying to sell you flexure awards, by the way, but one of the things he's been touting, not just now, but but for many years has been flexibility in how we pay and what we pay. And it would be wonderful for my perspective, if in 2023, we reform some of how the IRS looks at constructive receipt, so that people could make better decisions around how they get paid, and what they get paid. So people like me who are older, who would probably want to get paid more into retirement could make more flexible decisions when I needed to, about how I take pay, whether I put it into 401k are whether I this month, I'm kind of running short and need to take that money and put it into my bank account. I would love to see something like that. But that would take IRS reform that would take actual regulations and government government change. Because to be honest with you, the way we get paid is so rooted in 1920s 1930s processes, especially with regard to how and what you get paid, and why and how it gets taxed. That I'm hoping that gets reformed at some point. Because it really does constrain our ability to be creative.

 

Tara Furiani: 22:05

I completely agree with you. And I think there's so many, I hope, I hope and believe that there are people lobbying for exactly that. And it's beyond the people, I hope, lobbying for the exact opposite. Let's keep things where they were let's let's, you know, let's why would we want to change? I think the more of us really starting to pay attention to how politics affects the workplace. That's always been taboo, right, is that we don't talk about politics at work. But politics affects our workplaces. Legislature directly affects us as employees as employers. And you're right, you're so right.

 

David Turetsky: 22:43

And to the point you just made the legislation recently is more around pay transparency, which I think we all agree on this podcast, pay transparency leads to better outcomes when it comes to pay equity. It also leads to people literally knowing what their potential for pay is before they actually even try and interview for it.

 

Dwight Brown: 23:04

It's something that's been top secret before. It's all top secret. Yeah.

 

Tara Furiani: 23:09

And then they won't tell you till five interviews in they're making you the offer before you ever talking about pay. And you're like, hold on a minute. What what what am I even doing here?

 

David Turetsky: 23:17

Yeah, right. I've said this very publicly. If you're hiring people and getting them for bargain prices, you're a jerk. And yeah, you know, you shouldn't be nobody should be working for you. People should be paid what the market says they should be paid and what they deserve, no matter what their race, creed, ethnicity, gender, whatever, whatever they are, whatever who they are, they deserve to get paid the same as everyone else.

 

Tara Furiani: 23:42

Absolutely. And I am grateful for the continued legislation. I think it's California, obviously just passed the pay transparency Washington and Colorado and Connecticut already have it. And so I'm so excited and hopeful that the other 46 states, I'm not hopeful that all of them will. But though, you know, at least many of our other states will adopt similar policies, because we should know it should not be a taboo question to ask, What am I going to get paid by you to do the job that you're hiring me for? Like this shouldn't be some secret!

 

David Turetsky: 24:14

Who does it hurt?

 

Tara Furiani: 24:16

Who does it hurt?

 

David Turetsky: 24:17

Who's hurt? Right? The Comp people have to do extra work? Hire us! We'll help you with that. No, but seriously, what why? I mean, you know, when I was in comp, when I was a comp analyst and comp manager at Morgan Stanley, back in the early 90s, we said if you talk about pay, you can get fired. Well, that was the 90s we're talking 2022. And we're talking about now what's different about 2023? 2023 is the year that the veil comes down on compensation and everybody can understand how the box got made. Why the decisions got made in the box, and why should these decisions now have an open box?

 

Tara Furiani: 24:54

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it'd be like going to a store and not knowing what any price of anything you're putting in your cart is until you get to the checkout and they start ringing it up. And you're like, you wouldn't do that. But you wouldn't do that at the store. So why why should it be like that during the interview? What do you tell me what the price is? What are you going to pay me to do this?

 

David Turetsky: 25:14

Even if you go to a restaurant and it says MP on the personal, I don't go to restaurants that have MP at least not in the last like 10 years. But even if you go to a restaurant, it says MP, the first thing you're going to do is ask. Well, so what's the MP for that crabcake?

 

Tara Furiani: 25:33

$72 crabcake or whatever?

 

David Turetsky: 25:34

Yeah no thank you. Yeah, I'll take the appetizer, please.

 

Tara Furiani: 25:40

It's so true. And it's like you don't think about it that way. But this is that's employers right? Employers are giving us the menu without prices. And we just have to be surprised at the end and hope for the best. Yeah, hope you didn't end up at like the French Laundry and your meal is $450 a person. Hey, but gratuity is included. So

 

David Turetsky: 25:57

Exactly. There you go. You don't have to worry about the gratuity.

 

Dwight Brown: 26:01

I mean, workers workers have said we've had too much of this for for too long. You know, the the lack of transparency for for pay the layoffs, the uncertainty, the you know, people are starting to fight back at this point. And 2023 I think is going to continue to propel us forward. And 2024 is going to propel us even more forward. Again, going back in the bottle.

 

David Turetsky: 26:28

But Dwight the topic is only for talking about what's different in 2023. We can't go to 2024 yet sorry.

 

Dwight Brown: 26:38

One one day at a time, right?

 

David Turetsky: 26:42

Feels like these years are going by that like that like that quickly, because we turn around and turn 22 is almost over. And with how slow 2020 turned out to be with all the economic and political and nightmarish COVID and other things happening. Social Economic

 

Tara Furiani: 27:01

15 years packed into it.

 

David Turetsky: 27:02

It feels it feels like doesn't it feel like 2020 was crawling by from a human perspective, but like dogs were like, nope, same for me. I live this every year, seven years went by?

 

Dwight Brown: 27:16

Yeah, the dog's like, Welcome to my life.

 

David Turetsky: 27:20

But that's actually and to your point, I think it was a beautiful card that you pulled about patience is that, you know, as HR and even as non HR professionals coming into 2023 Look back at the last three years and take some solace that while we're going to have the midterms in November from an election perspective, and then yes, there will be some upheaval happening in November and right after that 2023 hopefully will be a year of peace. I pray, because let's hope that nothing happens politically or militarily in Ukraine causes Yeah, it causes the world to fall apart. But that's kind of the Sword of Damocles that we have over our head right now. And so, you know, we pray that no, not one more person dies in Ukraine or Russia for that matter. And that, you know, people get some sense to them, because the saber rattling that's happening is, is extremely scary and should be for everybody. Nonetheless, to be which we just had hurricane Ian pass through Florida and also I think it was South Carolina too. And, you know, more than 80 people lost their lives there. So we really do need to take a moment and say, yes, our topic is salaries, but at the end of the day, we're people and we need to survive this too.

 

Tara Furiani: 28:38

That's right. That's right. And it's devastating that the pictures coming out of like Southwest Florida, I mean, Tracy Spartanburg I think you guys know her she's a friend, a chief people officer as well based out of Boston area, her dad lives in that area, they've been traveling I've watched her pictures for years now heading over there and and then the pictures coming out of it and everything is gone. Every business is destroyed. I mean, destroyed, not not just repairable, like have to be rebuilt, like the whole town. And it is heartbreaking. We were there with our kids in July. And it's it's just so sad to think that you know, all the lives lost all that probably pets lost, you know, all the all the destruction and just devastation full lives up rooted. I mean, your home is gone. And gosh, like there's, to your point, we're talking about salary, but we're talking about human beings. And that's the moral of the story. It's, we have to do better as as organizations as leaders within them to ensure that people are being paid equitably, fairly without bias, you know, consistent with what those market rates are. And, you know, to to to not do that would be to negate probably all of your pillars and your values and your whatever you title your whoever you are as people things core values, your pillars of excellence, whatever, it's probably completely contrary, if you're not doing that, and I've lived it firsthand as a chief people officer, you can't imagine the things I've seen. But I've had it happen to me. And my common response when interviewing with people is, you know, I want to be paid in line with my executive peers when the question comes back, because you're gonna tell me what it is sucker like, Listen, this what I need, isn't what you're going to pay me necessarily. So that's generally my answer. It was my answer. One time, we got through the whole process told me transparently my salary was a bit lower, but they'd make it up in equity and bonus, and that this was aligned, and I got there. And I, this is a true story. I got there, and I was $100,000, a year less than my next closest PR, and how the person who is running all the people stuff, who's tasked with doing comp analyses, wouldn't you wouldn't think that I would know that. But I did. And then it was like, Well, you know, what are you going to do about it kind of attitude? And I was like, I'm gonna take my talent elsewhere. So goodbye.

 

David Turetsky: 31:04

Yeah, exactly.

 

Tara Furiani: 31:05

And that's that, you know, that's just disgusting. It is disgusting. To pay. And, of course, I was the only woman on the executive team. So we're talking about 100,000 less than all my white male counterparts. And like, it's just egregious. But it happens. It happened to me, to me, no. It's like, what are we doing here in this world?

 

David Turetsky: 31:25

Tara, somebody on LinkedIn said, how do you measure diversity in an organization? And I said, take a picture of the top, the top leadership and the and the picture of the board and post them online. And, and, and I got back, I think I got back, somebody go, well, that's a great idea. But But does that answer the question? Yeah, yes. Everybody takes their lead from who it is that's sitting at the top, and if I have a bunch of white smiling old guys, then that's what you're sending as a DE&I message to your staff to your team. And, you know, and to that point, it's not just about the content of the board. It's not about the content of the C suite. It's about how do you treat them? Yeah. Because if you're gonna treat the CHRO, like, shit, guess what?

 

Tara Furiani: 32:20

I'm not gonna sign that NDA. I've done enough for myself, I don't need to, I will talk about you. You're crazy. Like, yeah, like, if you're gonna do that to somebody in the C suite, think about what we're doing to the people in the field, it's to your point, offer a bargain basement, the COO was not the person I hired, but had that mentality of who can we get for the cheapest. And that is just the wrong approach. And you would think people at higher levels would understand and appreciate that, it's the one reason that really high end brands, and high end stuff is able to survive, and why. Because it's durable, it's good, it does last, but if you get that point of it, if you get why it costs more to buy your Louis Vuitton or your Balenciaga or your Balmain stuff.

 

David Turetsky: 33:07

I don't even know what those are. But okay, I'll take your word for it.

 

Tara Furiani: 33:09

Take my word for it, those are high end luxury brands, but you buy them for a reason, and you buy them, because of like, the quality of leather, whatever versus buying, like, you know, Faded Glory, at Walmart, you're gonna have to keep re buying it, keep re buying it, keep re buying it, because the purse handle is gonna, is gonna break it's gonna wear, right. Same with employees, like you buy something and you pay its value. And you, you, you do that for a reason, you hire somebody for a reason. And you pay the price, you pay what it takes to get that talent to get what you're looking for long term.

 

David Turetsky: 33:44

And I look at brands, you know, as a consumer, I look at brands that actually live and walk the talk. I know you weren't talking about that you were talking about, if you hire a quality person, they will provide you with quality work, I'm talking about from an EX perspective, companies that treat their employees well, and who lived those who lived the walking the talk, like Apple, who have not a very, very diverse board, but a very diverse leadership team, you know, headed by one of the most famous gay, you know, CEOs in the world, who, you know, they actually do talk about being different and actually thinking different and working different. Okay. And, you know, while I don't necessarily agree with their back to work practices, but that's been you know, that's between them and their employees, at least from a brand perspective I can get behind how they treat their employees, and how they interact with our employees. From an EX perspective.

 

Tara Furiani: 34:36

I completely agree. I'm friends with Lorenzo Flores who does another podcast called Hacking Your Leadership and he you know, has so many great things to say about what they're doing right and I am so with you. I had no idea really until a couple of years ago how invested they were in different channels of inclusivity and belonging. I agree with you on the back to work practices, but I mean to each their own, they have to decide what is best for them but but I'm so with you and you look at other companies I mentioned Disney earlier, I'm gonna mention them again and a non flattering way. They're a perfect example of pull up, pull up, pull up their Disney board. And the very interesting part is that the only person who is of color, I think there's maybe three people of color, but of course, it is a black man who was their chief culture officer, chief diversity officer, and it's just so it's like white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, we're Hispanic. What this one black man, you know, white, white, white, white, Asian. And it's like, no, there's 50 people on this page. Do you know what your parks look like? Do you know the makeup of your demographic in your entry level work, it is not this, to your point. And, and I am really hopeful that in 2023, and beyond, because we will get to 2024 faster than we know, like Dwight said, but I really am hopeful that everyone will appreciate and accept that this is the way now and it should be and you should feel good about it. And the benefit for you. If the moral part isn't enough. There are numerous studies that show movies used on big on that we talked about movies on every one of our there's a big study that I want to say Vanity Fair, or somebody like that for several years checking blockbuster movies that had diverse cast versus non diverse cast. And if a diversity of 30% more within your film yielded 100 million more dollars at the box office for these films versus the ones that did not have that level of diversity. And to me, that translates directly to our working world in really profound ways. So if you can't do it to feel good, because the right thing, do it for the cash, like do it for the money because it's going to make your companies better. You think that paying 5% now more in salaries is going to be hard. But we are making 15% year over year wait for your multiple goes up. If you're looking for an exit, like there's so much to being good and doing the right thing. But if that's not enough, money should be a driver.

 

David Turetsky: 36:58

Look at the YouTube videos of the reaction kids have the new Little Mermaid who's African American.

 

Tara Furiani: 37:03

Oh yeah, it's beautiful!

 

David Turetsky: 37:04

You can't help but cry if you're a human. Because you know, these kids go, Oh, my God, that girl, she looks like me. Right? And they go, Wow, that's amazing. I feel you know, I feel so great about this. You have to feel positive when you're having these positive influences and positive role models. And so I think one of the lessons in the takeaway that we're talking about Tara is that that it doesn't take a lot to treat your employees with respect. And it doesn't take a lot to live by example, and to whether it's filling a seat with a diverse candidate who's qualified, whether it's paying people fairly, not because of who they are, or what they are, because of what they do, or what they can do, and not asking the question, What did you get paid the last job you were in, whether or not you're in a state who, who has that as a law or not, those are steps you can take that are practical, right? In order to be able to be a different employer.

 

Tara Furiani: 38:01

Absolutely, like walk the talk, you all have it, like I'm going to talk directly to employers right now. You all have core values, mission, a vision, pillars of excellence, whatever, you have those, sit down with them for a little bit, look at them, study them, read them reflect on if those are what you actually are, in reality, because the people that have culture problems, turnover problems, etc. You can write shit on the wall, you can say shit at orientation, you can do whatever. But if you're not doing that stuff, people notice. So it's not hard, we're talking about a minimal impact your bottom line, and the reality and the grand scheme of raising everybody the aggregate of five or even 10%, this next year. That's enough to retain them the thing that you will get in return from from doing the right thing from being that that excellent Employer of Choice, best place to work, whatever you tout yourself to be, you will make it tenfold. If you just do minimal things, actually think about your employees, the way you would think about your customers. And if you're delivering excellence and value and service and whatever it is that you do, you should be looking inward and doing those same exact things. Or you end up with the people who are doing the things for their employees, excuse me, clients you're trying to support. They're not providing that service, you say you're gonna give so it's, it's a win win, to just do the right thing. It's a win win to say and do and walk, the things you are saying and talking about in various places. And the impact financially is so minimal yet the rewards can be so great. And it's a must going into the next year. It is a must to prioritize your people strategy and if you don't have one, you need one. If you don't even know what I'm talking about, you need that too. A people strategy that includes compensation and total rewards and employee experience and what professional opportunities? Why should they work there? What does that look like? What do they want? You know what they want? Are you giving it to them? What can you do? A strategy related to people the same way you would have with your customer strategy with you or whatever strategy in other parts of the business.

 

David Turetsky: 40:23

Tara, I think you can drop your SM7B because that was beautiful.

 

Tara Furiani: 40:28

Thank you.

 

David Turetsky: 40:31

And that's the reason why we wanted to talk to you! Tara, that was beautiful. And thank you very much for being on the HR Data Labs podcast.

 

Tara Furiani: 40:46

Friends. Thank you for having me. I hope we get to try it again. Maybe I can convince you to come on our show.

 

David Turetsky: 40:52

We would love that. That'd be great.

 

Tara Furiani: 40:54

Yay! Okay. I would love it too. Thank you so much for having me. I could talk to you for days. This has been so much fun.

 

David Turetsky: 41:00

We can too. Take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 41:03

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