Developing Fintech in Africa with Carl Powell

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Related Resources:

• Compensation Consulting
• Pay Equity
• Episode 8 – DE&I: Where We Are vs. Where We Want to Be, and How to Get There

SPEAKERS

Lenna Turner, Carl Powell, Kevin Plunkett

 

Carl Powell  00:05

I used to sit, you know, in the dirt, no joke in Mississippi and lay back and look up at the sky and say, You know what? One day I'm gonna do I'm gonna be an international businessman.

 

Kevin Plunkett  00:15

Carl's big dream does come true. But how does that happen?

 

Carl Powell  00:20

Now, I'm very poor, my mom has no money whatsoever to afford to flight. So I had to call three of my uncles to see if they could pitch in to get me the flight up to Harvard Business School. The whole time. She's talking to me, Kevin, I'm thinking, I just two or $300 in my uncle's money to fly up here. Now, I gotta go and tell my uncles that I took their money for nothing.

 

Kevin Plunkett  00:45

They defer him for two years. So he goes on to work for Arthur Andersen.

 

Carl Powell  00:51

They treated me like, just like a rock star.

 

Kevin Plunkett  00:54

Harvard leads to the paper company, Georgia Pacific, where we meet our next guest, Lenna,

 

Lenna Turner  01:00

I wanted for a mentor in terms of what I wanted to how I wanted to develop at the time.

 

Carl Powell  01:05

So she tried to find me as a mentor before, even give me the opportunity to mentor her, she thought I was unqualified,

 

Lenna Turner  01:13

That was not true. I saw his resume, and that he had that, you know, the HBS. And I thought, well, he's gonna be a handful. But it turned out to be great, really.

 

Kevin Plunkett  01:24

The influence of diversity and inclusion really impacts both Carl and Lenna's professional development. Carl eventually finds himself in Africa, and made an unexpected discovery.

 

Carl Powell  01:35

What I noticed all my visits over the years with Integral was at the bank branches on every corner.

 

Lenna Turner  01:41

And while they didn't have a bank, you said most everybody had a phone. That's the mobile technology. Right?

 

Carl Powell  01:49

So, I spent about a year developing the technology to bring the unbanked consumers and the unbanked businesses into the financial services industry, because heretofore they were really keeping all their money upon their mattress.

 

Kevin Plunkett  02:03

He's learned a lot since his days in Cambridge. And while he may be humble, he isn't too humble, to learn something from his own kids.

 

Carl Powell  02:11

It frustrates me so much when they just walk in and one second and say that, once you just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right? They come in with without the filter of my age, and just say, why are you doing it that way? And so as I think about teaming and in the workplace, you know, I'm aggressive about trying to integrate it, that that that youthful voice, if you will, in the room.

 

Lenna Turner  02:33

So we have to be thinking about ways to take advantage of the intellect the both populations and then look at harnessing that diversity of thought.

 

Carl Powell  02:42

I think inclusion is not discrimination against anyone, right? It is just making sure that all parties are heard.

 

Lenna Turner  02:47

Parting words for people who do this work in diversity, equity inclusion.

 

Carl Powell  02:52

Because in the day, you'd have like, oh, wow, you know, Carl is cool. Yeah. You know, you went to Harvard Carl is cool.

 

Kevin Plunkett  02:57

Yeah. You're cool, Carl. And our audience is going to find out how cool you are, right here, right now. This is Get Pay Right. The podcast that dives deep into the current compensation topics that matter to you most, so you can get it right, every time. Welcome to today's podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Plunkett. And I've got very special guests joining us today, we've had the privilege of coming across many different influences and leaders who are changing how and where work is getting done and how partnerships and looking at different ways of approaching work can really fuel a global economy. So today, I've got my colleague, Lenna Turner.

 

Lenna Turner  03:53

Hi Kevin.

 

Kevin Plunkett  03:54

Hello, who heads up our diversity, equity inclusion, and I'll let her introduce herself in a second. And then also is Carl Powell, who is the founder of Javelin.

 

Carl Powell  04:06

Hi Kevin, how are you?

 

Kevin Plunkett  04:07

Hey, good to see you. And Carl's had a really impressive and really interesting background and has done some incredible things across multiple different industries doing a lot business actually in Africa. So we will hear more and more about all of that. But Lenna, do you want to give a quick background on you? I know you were in our last podcast, so people probably remember who you are. But why don't you tell us first hand.

 

Lenna Turner  04:31

Sure. My name is Lenna Turner. I am currently director of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging at Salary.com. I've been here about three years prior to that I held several positions across a couple of different industries, including banking, I work for Truist, which is a large Super Regional East Coast banking concern and then Bank of America, Coca Cola, and spent a large amount of my time at Georgia Pacific which is if you buy any paper towel, paper product, you probably bought something came from Georgia Pacific, I spent a good bit of my time there, which is where I met our distinguished guest today, and had the pleasure of not really working with him but being in a program with him. So we'll get into that later, hopefully. But that's my background.

 

Kevin Plunkett  05:13

What do you mean what kind of program?

 

Lenna Turner  05:15

I was in a formal mentor mentee program. My boss just asked me one day, if I wanted to be in a mentor program at Georgia Pacific, they were putting together and I said yes. And this is where they asked you the type of person you are interested in being mentored by. And I at the time, just wanted to know, corporate stuff, I wanted to know something that did not have to do with HR or compensation. So I said, I want somebody in strategy and planning and finance, who knows the company. And Georgia Pacific was huge into m&a at that point. And Carl was sitting right in that office, right. So I didn't know I was gonna get him. But that's how I met him based on the choice I wanted for a mentor in terms of what I wanted to how I wanted to develop at the time. So, that's how it started.

 

Carl Powell  05:55

And she tried to stop me as I met, she tried to find me as a mentor before even give me the opportunity to mentor her because I think she was yes, it was hard to believe that she looked at me and just based upon my, my appearance, she thought I was unqualified to provide her the level of incite, that would allow her

 

Lenna Turner  06:13

That was not good. That was not true. I saw his resume and that he had that, you know, the HBS. And I thought, well, he's gonna be a handful. But it turned out to be great, really. That was not true.

 

Kevin Plunkett  06:20

Lenna this doesn't bode well for you. Oh so you don't like Harvard Business School people is that it Lenna?

 

Lenna Turner  06:33

I do. I do at the time, my life was so full of work. And I thought, Oh, my God, he's gonna give me so many assignments. He's gonna want check ins all the time. What did I get into, so don't want him and this is before the assignments were announced. So let me look down the list further.

 

Kevin Plunkett  06:50

You know, that's interesting, Carl, you got pretty cool, extensive resume, right? You've had extensive strategic international experience. You've worked in Europe, Latin America, Mexico, you're an active angel investor, currently on the board of several different companies and manufacturing, agribusiness, consumer products and the like. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you get to be Mr. Carl.

 

Carl Powell  07:16

Yeah, you know, as we started, I would say even before the real estate, you know, at Arthur Andersen back in the day when it was Arthur Andersen, so my first real job out of out of Ole Miss University, Mississippi, well, when I was in accounting, and I figured out that I hated looking back on businesses, you know, everything was already competed, when accountants come into the room, and nothing has accountants that are listening, and it just did not fit my personality. And so I figured out very quickly that I'm more of a forward looking less, less attack the future versus, you know, attesting to the path. And so, but the one thing that happened during my time at Anderson was that I had an opportunity to work across different industries, because they had a small business group that was working with clients across a range of industries. And that really appealed to me greatly, I found that my personality is suited to do multiple things. And so, so that's what I've done. I did, I got Ole Miss from Mississippi, originally, my outlook has always been shaped by you know, by my mom, you know, 100 years ago grown to Mississippi, she was very optimistic about life, you know, that was never a bad day, even though she was raising four boys with probably $20 a month at that time, but we were always happy and content and, and I don't think I've ever seen her have a bad day yet. And so, so that influenced me that that I'm very optimistic in nature, you know, grew up in a, even though I was in Mississippi, in the south, you know, a while ago, we have a very diverse house, my house was the house that everybody came to on Sundays, it doesn't matter of race, or creed, or color, and all that stuff. Everyone came up on the hill to kind of have fun and play basketball. And so, so my background, what really made me is number one, you know, optimism about about tomorrow, number two, a level of benevolence that my mom shared. And number three, because she was a teacher, you know, strong fundamentals of education. And so those things kind of grounded my whole outlook of perspective on all the things that I'm really doing to be, you know, analytically rigorous in what I'm thinking about, you know, think big thoughts and be optimistic about those things being able to happen, and have a suite of friends that reflect the world. That's, that's really, you know, the Louise Powell effect that I call it all me.

 

Kevin Plunkett  09:32

Excellent. So as a person of color, your upbringing and, you know, the fact that you, you know, grew up in some tough economic times in Mississippi, how has that background and that that element of of your diversity impacted sort of the business decisions you've made?

 

Carl Powell  09:49

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think the first fundamental thing for me that I had to wrap my mind around is that that when you are blessed with certain talents, whether it is education or intellect I think there's a level of responsibility to seek out opportunities to help others. Right? You know, it was a long time ago that I realized that, hey, this is coming easy to me that I can figure out different things. And, and again, I just remember him to hey, it's not like that for everybody. Right? You know, you're blessed that because you have you have a decent mind, and you have have the ability to execute and do things fairly quickly. But all those are not that way. So it's your responsibility to make sure that you take advantage of those blessings to help other folks.

 

Kevin Plunkett  10:26

What brought on our business school then and deciding, okay, I need a new career path. I'm gonna go to business school and go figure it out, or was it more nuanced than that?

 

Carl Powell  10:36

Yeah, I was at Ole Miss. And I was, I was a junior at Nulato, rising senior at Ole Miss and, and I told my professor at that time that I was going to apply to business school, and I was gonna go to Harvard Business School. And of course, my professors counselor looked at me like women you want to go were from Mississippi mount? I said, Yeah, I'm going to Harvard. And I told her that list I'm going to apply for only Harvard Business School. And she looked at me like I had nine, here's like, what you realize the chances of you get into Harvard Business School, you know, you know, like, I don't know, point point something. And she said, maybe you should consider if you're considering a top school, applying for the top 10 out there. No, I'm on applying for one school. And that's Harvard Business School. So I applied my senior year.

 

Kevin Plunkett  11:21

Clearly, you didn't learn about don't put your eggs in one basket.

 

Carl Powell  11:26

You know, you young I'm 21. I'm thinking that, you know, whatever the sun rise and shine around Louise Powell, son, so. So I get a letter from the admissions office. And Mr. Powell, we got your application. And we were like to invite you up for an interview on Harvard Business School campus. Now. I'm dirt poor, my mom has no money whatsoever to afford to fly. Literally, I'm just working my way through. So I had to call three of my uncle's to see if they could pitch in to get me to flight up to Harvard Business School, from Oxford Memphis, at the top of the Memphis, Tennessee. And they're kicking and screaming, what are you going to Boston? They've never ever thought about freaking going to Boston. So yeah, I'm flying to Boston to Harvard Business School, Harvard Business School. So they give me the money. I fly up to Harvard. And glory, I see it like this is yesterday. So I'm in the interview room talking to Gloria and she's asked me just random questions like, hey, you know, how are you doing? Like, what's your life like? And, and I'm waiting for the real interview at this point, like, when is she gonna ask me the tough questions. And so it was really just a social thing. And so she said, Well, we really just want to fly you up to get a feel for you to let you know that we're going to admit you to Harvard Business School. But we're going to defer you for two years because we before our candidates to have worked for a couple of years, but but we just wanted to meet you in person to give you that news. And so any other person would have taken that that information and been ecstatic, right? Like, oh, wow, that's great. The whole time. She's talking to me, Kevin, I'm thinking, I just took $300 In my uncle's money to fly up here to Harvard Business School. When these people could have simply, she can fit in a lot of standard I've accepted. Now I gotta go and tell my uncle's that I took their money for nothing.

 

Kevin Plunkett  13:11

And they sent me two years before I can go there, because they wanted you.

 

Carl Powell  13:15

But that's the whole time wants to know. Thank you. Wow. So anyway, so I got in and,

 

Kevin Plunkett  13:20

So, they accepted right there on the spot that okay, that does not happen to everybody, Carl, you know, all right. My brother had a very different experience.

 

Carl Powell  13:29

Really with it? Yeah, she, she gave me on the spot, you end up getting a letter, and I should have been just ecstatic. flying back to Memphis, Tennessee, but I tell you, I was just thinking about, Man, am I gonna have to pay my uncle back this $300. But but it was, it was a great experience, which really helped me because I've been had two years that I knew that I could go in and do what I wanted to at Edison. And they knew that coming in, so I was able to, to try a variety of different things during my two years. And they treated me extremely well. You know, I had great opportunities internationally with them. They treated me like, just like a rockstar. And I really appreciated that education, post education that they gave me during those two years, and then I went out.

 

Lenna Turner  14:10

So that's very interesting that they treated you so well, because diversity, equity and inclusion has really just blossomed in the last 10-15 years maybe. And we were having a training coming up here at Salary.com. And one of the questions we're posing is have you ever been the only the only one person of color the only man the only woman? And how did you feel about that? So as you went into Arthur Andersen, it was consulting at the time, I doubt that it was extremely diverse. I could be wrong, but I just want to hear your experience about that. And and as a person of color going into that, how did that work? And how were your experiences even though you know, it's always about the best and the brightest and who does the best work? So that should always shine through. And it sounds like it did in your case, but being a person of color. How was that at that time?

 

Carl Powell  15:02

You know, I? That's a very good question. A very good, good point Lenna. You know, I was one of four African Americans at that time that were hired as our start group. But we spent a lot of time their first year at Emerson working with with their recruiting department, talking about the notion of, hey, we can't find good candidates, that's what they would normally say. And our, our question back is, well, where are you looking? You know, for these candidates? And and they would say, well, we're looking at, you know, Ole Miss, or Vanderbilt, or Virginia or whatever, whatever, whatever. And we're populations of minorities at the time was, you know, 2/3/4 percent at maximum. And so we would always pose to them. Well, if you really want strong minority candidates, why don't you go to minority schools, right, schools that have more more population of potential, and that's the word that we used to say all the time population of potential, right. So because if you come to Ole Miss, which they did, and it is called pal, which is the number one or two students in the accounting program at Ole Miss, I got 30 offers that I can choose from right, because everyone was Carl Powell. And so if you go to FAMU for instance, you may have 30, or 40, qualified candidates, and at least you have an opportunity in that pool to get qualified candidates and have numbers in case they turn your offer down or take someone else's offer. And so, so we were very much into the to the analytics even in those days, I'm saying, you know, when, when big Corp or low Corp or whomever say they cannot find qualified candidates, tell me the 10 schools that you're going to, and I can tell you whether you have a problem or not, right, because if you're only going to high IVs, or high, whatever, then you're missing out on just a numbers game. And I think now, folks, alien nature on emissions, and all these places realize it's just, it's just math, you know, like Louise Powell tells me it's just math, right? The more the more folks that you talk to that are potentially qualified, the higher the chances that you will have to find someone that's qualified for your firm, right? But unless you are, unless you're gonna talk to call and fail a call, you have to be like me going to Harvard Business School, right? That's a one time opportunity to make that to make the deal work. And it's just me versus talking to him on the phone.

 

Lenna Turner  17:19

Today, we just refer to that as diversify. And that candidate pool widening that candidate pool and which is what a lot of HR and CEOs and diversity leaders are saying is, it's still a key thing, because every year we look at what are the key things for diversity? What does diversity and 2023 look like? And that's always a thing always.

 

Carl Powell  17:38

Yeah, and we used to talk about those old days, man, and Kevin, you know, there's information shared, even in bad, you know, interviews. So even if a deal is not done, you know, you get intellectual insight from those deals, right, from just talking to a diverse set of candidates, you know, even if you don't hire them, you get a certain perspective about even the candidate that you may really want to hire, right, just because there's morning when you're interacting with voices that are different from from your current pool. And you also are furthering your information on what type of candidate that you may want from no school. But in a lot of these schools, that's just the element of masters get on campus first. And even in the first two years, we don't hire anybody, let's just make sure that we are getting educated. And we're educating the balcony on the type of students that we want.

 

Lenna Turner  18:25

Right. And you building partnerships. And we do, we're trying to do that today. And I'm trying to do that, starting at Salary.com, just building some partnerships with some key HBCUs, to find that top talent or to expose them to our brand and our firm, and to expose our firm and our brand to them.

 

Kevin Plunkett  18:42

How receptive has a message ban about the value of diversity? And how have you seen that in practice really flourish?

 

Carl Powell  18:50

Yes, great question. You know, I mean, Kevin, after business school and consulting and to Georgia Pacific to really focus my economic effort to be aligned with some of my benevolence interests, and meaning that in the real estate space as a partner with integral, you know, we are 100% focused on providing affordable workforce housing for folks that want to live in certain areas that are just getting priced out. Right. And so that is part of a mission that that long ago, Chairman Ekberg, Perry realized that, that housing makes a big difference on on folks alive, I noticed very much a trite statement, but it is it is for real, you know, just secure shelter and the impact that it has on on education and quality of life and security and all that is substantial in the impact particularly for folks early on under development. And so we've been quite strategic and focusing on in the urban space, providing affordable quality high end how housing to folks that want to remain in the city. And so, so it is a for profit company. But we have made sure that the mission component was very consistent what I was trying to make a profit. So that was the first side of my career of inclusion, if you will, because of the influence of housing on folks lives.

 

Kevin Plunkett  20:19

And when did you start that? And you started that when?

 

Carl Powell  20:21

That was in 2002.

 

Kevin Plunkett  20:24

That was like, during the first real big housing bubble was just kind of ramping up at that point, right?

 

Carl Powell  20:29

Yeah, we've been through a couple of cycles, you know, through us, our housing product is all rental. So we were doing affordable what we call mixed income housing in places like Atlanta, and Denver, and Baltimore and Washington DC, before it was really cool to be in the city. And that's when, you know, the cities were still like the city you live in the city. But the city that at that time, were not as diverse as they are now. So the cities that we were working in initially, were pretty much flight had already gone to the suburbs. And the only thing left in the city was with a lot of poverty. And so we saw that as an opportunity to try to affect some of that poverty by providing secure housing in a safe environment that was quality to the residents there were there were left there. I mean, you know, a lot of folks just can't afford to pay $3,000 a month for a one bedroom apartment in Midtown Atlanta, I mean, $3,000 a month, it is for the workforce that's looking to stay in the city, so they don't have to drive, you know, three hours just to come into a job that's paying them 40k to drive back three hours at the end of the day.

 

Kevin Plunkett  21:33

And I imagine that it has a you know, a trickle down effect of if you're able to go into these neighborhoods, where maybe initially, probably not now, but back then maybe initially, your real estate prices might have been depressed or fluctuate wildly, whatever you're able to come in, and did you sort of do it on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis to try to stabilize certain areas and groups so that, you know, all the housing prices will rise, you know, with and establish a, you know, a steady baseline for that neighborhood.

 

Carl Powell  22:04

Yeah, that's been that's, that's the strategy. And that's been the goal. And so you try to control as much of the territory as you can to manage the gentrification, if you will. But the reality of the matter is, is that as soon as all the speculators or developers or whatever, you know, find out that you can rent it to start a process of transformation, it is the Wild Wild West, and then from there, you know, can get a little bit out of control. So that's why, you know, certain places, it's very difficult to find workforce housing, it just really is just because the price of the real estate has gone up so high, that that police officer, even though they may want to live in their current beat, man, they may be driving, you know, hour and a half, you know, just to come back in and kind of roam the streets for eight hours just to drive an hour and a half back. Because they have even if it's just him and her that's expensive, but there's no way it's gonna be him or her and two little people. So you just can't, just can't afford and a lot of the large geographies in the urban spaces these days.

 

Kevin Plunkett  23:04

So can you talk a little bit I mean, I'm fascinated by your, you know, some of the opportunities you've created and out of Africa. And and you kind of came in, you know, more on I think, if I remember correctly, you kind of came in with the telecom play. But that morphed into banking, which has morphed into a whole bunch of other opportunities. Can you sort of talk about how that whole dynamic happened?

 

Carl Powell  23:27

Yeah, that's a good question. So Javelin group, about a year and a half, maybe two years ago max coming out of COVID. You know, I had a lot of time to actually think and COVID, about different opportunities that based upon my career, and part of my career at the integral was actually spending time on the continent of Africa, flying around and doing due diligence on multiple countries, you know, you have some countries that are runaway, they're not ready for any type of you know, real, you know, serious business, even though business is getting done. And then you have some countries that are pretty close to the USA, right? You got to know the right politics that you have to play, you got to know the right partners that you're dealing with, you got to know the risk involved in the different transactions. And you have to select those countries based upon the characteristics of the country versus the whole continent. And so what I noticed on my visits over the years for integral was that they aren't bank branches on every corner that folks have a very difficult time engaging in the financial services industry. And and so I said, you know, if I can create a technology company that would connect the banks, with their customers, and a similar strategy of Rocket Mortgage, let's just say in terms of how people can apply for mortgages on their platform, then I can be a FinTech that can be partners with the banks versus someone who's trying to put the banks out of business. And so, so I went down and had conversations with these major banks. I spent about a year developing the technology, the API that can connect to the banks, with the idea to bring the unbanked consumers and the unbanked businesses into the financial services industry, because here two, four, they were really keeping all their money upon their mattress.

 

Kevin Plunkett  25:12

So basically, just so we understand, so the economic environment there was, there were banks, but the banks really just dealt with the highest levels of business and citizens, and that there were major underserved populations in those countries relative to either consumer banking or small business banking. Is that right?

 

Lenna Turner  25:33

That's exactly right. And while they didn't have a bank, you said most everybody had a phone. That's the mobile technology.

 

Carl Powell  25:41

Exactly. Right. So so it's a lot of it's just very a lot of friction, trying to actually physically get in that one location that's in downtown across, you know, but it's very easy, because those folks have phones, and sometimes multiple phones, to do transaction based activities on the phone. And so the continent has always grown up from a from a mobile usage, if you will, way more so than us here in the US. You know, we've now just recently started doing things like Zelle, and, and Venmo, and all those things. But because they did not have the infrastructure on every corner, the continent has always been very accustomed to using their mobile phones for different activities. And so what I did was to actually connect the bank then that sitting in downtown, to these customers on their phone, by using my IT platform to do that. And so the banks are my customers. And then we started to, as you mentioned, provide the bank's different services ourselves, it was a bank, you now need to create a mortgage program where you now need to provide have a foreign exchange where you now need to, to reach out to the import export market, we can facilitate you growing your business, because now, all these customers are able to interact with you, without taking the half day to go downtown to sit there for three hours just to see a teller. And so our role has been banks, governments, as well as businesses, and that's kind of our target, just kind of bringing the element of efficiency to how they would do financial services, and to us, is very consistent with the DI offers that you guys have, because we're looking to bring those folks into the financial services industry, because there's a smarter way for them to do what they are doing. And they just have never had the opportunity to do it.

 

Kevin Plunkett  27:27

Yeah, so basically, your experience in dealing with the underserved populations within Africa, right, the fact that they were all heavily mobile, you know, you saw that you figured out a way to make that work in Africa. But then, you know, looking at the US market, the US market, you know, if you think of Africa as a bottom up, right, it's consumer driven, because it's all on their phones, the US market, the opposite to the top down, top down driven, right, it's all bricks and mortar being pushed down to the consumer. They're, they're polar opposites to each other. And so you know, as we were talking earlier, so diversity, equity inclusion, things you will learn as diverse concepts, right, here's one where you've literally taken a business opportunity out of Africa, and are looking to supplant it into a more mature environment where they don't quite totally, maybe I've gotten there as fast as they could have.

 

Carl Powell  28:24

You got it, you know, but the interesting thing is, is a lot of times when the general market thinks about DEI efforts, you know, it's some form of, you know, minority color based thing. And there's a difference. There's something that's missed sometimes, which is just demographics, right? The ageism, if you will, and I give you, I'll tell you what I mean, which is, I have three kids, but two of them, they're one is 21, is 21, neither of them would have any interest in having a formal bank account, they just can't imagine that I have to go to Wells Fargo to do a transaction, if they can't do it via cash app, or do it to some other quick transformation from their, from their friend to you know, to their wallet. They look at me like I have nine hairs when I say you want me to go to a bank. And so what's amazing that even in the US, the call it the 15 or 14 to whatever 30 crowd, whatever their right age dynamics, they are entering the market and the down in the bottom side up like Africa, because they are used to being able to do things on their phones without having to go into the bank, right? versus the old guys like us. They Oh, I gotta go to Wells Fargo. All of my kids in their early like one teen that other two and early 20s have very little interest in a formal banking relationship. Now I try to teach them that, hey, you're gonna need a mortgage, you're gonna need a car you're gonna need you're gonna get all these things and I said, Well, okay, when I'm 30 years old, think about those things. But for now, you know, I just want you to send me money. And I want to be able to send money to, to my friend and be able to collect money back for them. And so, so I will say some of the same market dynamics of how our younger generations are using financial services, it really is flipping it upside down because they interact differently than we have extraordinary interacted with our with our banking partners.

 

Lenna Turner  30:25

I love that you pointed out one, one piece of diversity ages. And because we live in the United States, when we think of diversity, equity inclusion, we so often think along the lines of color, and race and things like that. But when you talk about diversity, there's just so many prongs to it. Diversity of thought diverse ages, and both ways swings both ways. As we look at the workforce and how it's changing, you have so many boomers and people who are over boomers, and you have all these millennials, you have that convergence in the workforce now. So we have to be thinking about ways to upskill those people work together, build inclusive teams have take advantage of the intellect of both populations, and then look at harnessing that diversity of thought, which we now know leads lots of statistics that lead to innovation, productivity, engagement, employment brand, things like that, from having diverse workforce. So it's lots of different pillars to diversity. And you've gone down through a lot of different paths in your career that I think diversity, in many ways thought, and just basic physical diversity is really played a large part.

 

Carl Powell  31:30

Let me just say, I would say the best and the frustrating thing about Judaism and what you just mentioned, particularly as relates to me, learning from our own kids, is frustrating, and it's so insightful, is that, you know, things that would take me 15 minutes to figure out, it frustrates me so much when they just walk in and one segment say that, once you just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right? And they're exactly right, because I'm so stuck and got to doing ABCD. They come in with without the filter of my age, and just say, why are you doing it that way. And so as I think about teaming in the workplace, and particularly in both companies that I'm involved with, you know, I'm aggressive about trying to, to energetic that, that that youthful voice, if you will, in the room, because the efficiency and the different perspective, because they aren't framed by decades of whatever can be refreshing to us, that kind of needs a different perspective, while some things so I agree the ages and peace kind of gets lost some time.

 

Lenna Turner  32:28

I agree. But I will, in defense of anybody who's not in that younger group, that intellectual capital that you can use and harness. And so you really have to put some strategic focus into how you bring those two groups together, because you want to keep that and you want to use that along with those efficiency, you just don't want to do it, like it take 20 hours, you know, which sometimes it's the case. So I love that.

 

Kevin Plunkett  32:50

But also what's interesting, though, is when you put some of those younger folks with the more senior folks, you there's a dynamic there that sometimes the younger folks don't feel empowered to speak up, or are intimidated to say anything and, you know, are looking for to be directed and guidance by the more senior guys, how do you break that barrier down? So that everybody comes in as an equal, even though you know, somebody may have 20 years of experience? And how do you get that person to step down and not talk? And how do you get the younger folks to speak up?

 

Carl Powell  33:24

The typical US Corp is so label driven in terms of roles and responsibility, that when someone walks into the room, a team of five or whatever, most folks got to know that that was the director, that's the VP that's the president that was or whatever the case may be. And unfortunately, folks, even without intellect or insight into a particular subject matter, subject matter, falls into believing that that next level up, you know, has the best insight. And so there was a natural tendency to say, well, you know, Kevin is the is the owner, or Lenna is the VP and somebody else a director, they should no longer be quiet. So I think, ultimately, in that deal world, when you step in meetings, there's a no title zone in that conference room for the hour, for the two hours of the meeting, right is just there, everyone left their business cards, you know, out at the front desk, and when you walk into the work room, or the think tank or whatever your your whiteboard setup is, everyone is just here as people, right? That's the only way to start break down. You know, when you go off site, people do a lot of teaming and try to deal that out. But even in the corporate daily, it should be leave your your business card in the door. Right? And then when you leave out of the door, take your business card with you. That's the only way to start free up some of the energy I believe that that can be created when folks are just sitting here as team members are not in some hierarchical structure.

 

Kevin Plunkett  34:53

Now is that something you have actively pushed that concept of you actually push that down through your organization so that on an org chart, it may appear to have hierarchies. But culturally, it feels very flat.

 

Carl Powell  35:05

Oh, one of the and I think this personality driven I mean, at the end of the day, I think we started this conversation saying, I'm just Carl, you know, you know, I hate when people call me Mr. Powell and all that I'm just I'm just Carl, you know, I'm still the same character, you know, the sitting room, I appreciate intellect, I don't care if it's coming from 19 to 78, right. And I get even more frustrated, if the, the quieter persons in the room or in I know that are capable, are being solid, I tend to be harder on them, Lenna than I am for the people that I know are capable. So I believe in having your voice. Now, we may disagree. But it would agitate me more for someone not to, to speak up. And so I tend to be hard on those folks that I know they're very capable, to make sure that they are getting their voices heard.

 

Lenna Turner  36:01

And the thing I love about that is that it really helps but moreso helping people understand how you build trust within teams, so that that person who doesn't speak up now feels really free to speak up. And that comes with some team building and understanding who's in the room, understanding all of the diversity that sits around the table, and it takes a little bit of work, you can do it, we're having a whole learning session around building diverse relationships. But that's what it's about. I might not want to ask the person who's 20 year old years old, something big for many reasons, but I don't know that person. But when you start to talk to that person, break down some of the barriers that cause you know, communications issues and trust issues, then you can really get the diversity of thought from all those people around the table.

 

Kevin Plunkett  36:47

So what's next for Carl? I mean, what like at what point are you actually going to be taking over the world Carl?

 

Carl Powell  36:53

I've enjoyed the last couple of years in building Javelin, but I would be no place else other than where I am right now my life, if you will, in terms of what I'm trying to do. So I'm fortunate and blessed with all with them. I'm just I'm blessed.

 

Lenna Turner  37:07

Parting words, for people who do this work in diversity, equity inclusion, what would you sort of advise them to do and things that they can do to move the needle on diversity, equity inclusion, in terms of diversifying that pipeline, making it so that we can hear those voices in the room that are not used to speaking up or getting that representation just quickly?

 

Carl Powell  37:28

I think inclusion is not discrimination against anyone, right? It is just making sure that all parties are heard. And all parties will not agree all the time. But I firmly believe that institutions, whether big, small, large or whatever, balance are by including all voices that can be heard, I just think the different perspective, really dream brings for a better outcome than one perspective, right? Because if you only gonna have one perspective, it should just be one him or her, you know, and just that everybody working, but if you want a diversity of opportunity and growth, you got to figure out a way for folks to be included. And that means you have to do some hard stuff. You have to go to different places, right? You have to recruit different places you have to be uncomfortable in your recruiting and process to get people that may initially make you feel a little uncomfortable. But in a day you go like Oh, wow, you know, Carl is cool Yeah, even though he went to Harvard Carl is cool, right?

 

Kevin Plunkett  38:30

When he was at Harvard to in the wintertime.

 

Carl Powell  38:33

He was, yes he was. I appreciate what you guys are doing even though this is your podcast I really do is a very important topic in the salary space around inclusion and equitability and all that is very important. So I think the more you guys can gain insight, the more you can help lead the industry like you're doing so bravo for you guys.

 

Kevin Plunkett  38:52

Thank you, Carl. Really appreciate it. The Get Pay Right podcast is produced by Kevin Plunkett, Julie Murphy and Megan Nadeau. If there are topics you'd like to hear about, let us know and get pay right at Salary.com. Thank you all for listening, and make the time to get pay right.